In the Bible, does Jesus say abortion is wrong?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by United we Stand, Feb 22, 2005.

  1. Maggie

    Maggie Guest

    Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
    > On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:40:04 -0800, unisex <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > <[email protected]>:
    >
    > >Ben Kaufman wrote:
    > >> <[email protected]>

    wrote:
    > >> Quit cross posting this flame over ancient myths in rec.bicycles.

    > >We'll stop when you stop spreading your lies about Dubya, Jesus and

    SUVs
    >
    > +--------------------------------------+
    > \ 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 /
    > \ 1 9 / /
    > \ 0 / 10 /
    > \ TROLL-O-METER / /
    > \ / /
    > \ / /
    > \_____________________/____/
    > \ /
    > \....................../



    Hey, thats cool.....very creative.
    **
    __+___ ------ ___+___
    Maggie
    ********************
    ******************
    ****************
    :)
     


  2. On 1 Mar 2005 06:34:10 -0800, "Maggie" <[email protected]>
    wrote in message
    <[email protected]>:

    >Hey, thats cool.....very creative.


    And shamelessly stolen from elsewhere. I'd love to be able to claim
    the credit, tho. :)

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
     
  3. Ben Kaufman <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 02:38:07 -0500, "David W. Poole, Jr."
    >
    > Your inconsiderate cross posting speaks louder than anything else you
    > have to say.



    you did exactly the same thing you are critisizing him for doing. do you
    understand the term "hypocrisy?"
     
  4. james g. keegan jr. wrote:

    > Ben Kaufman <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 02:38:07 -0500, "David W. Poole, Jr."
    >>
    >> Your inconsiderate cross posting speaks louder than anything else you
    >> have to say.

    >
    >
    > you did exactly the same thing you are critisizing him for doing.



    And so did you.

    > do you
    > understand the term "hypocrisy?"


    ditto
     
  5. Usenet Sociopath <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > james g. keegan jr. wrote:
    >
    >> Ben Kaufman <[email protected]> wrote in
    >> news:[email protected]:
    >>
    >>> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 02:38:07 -0500, "David W. Poole, Jr."
    >>>
    >>> Your inconsiderate cross posting speaks louder than anything else you
    >>> have to say.

    >>
    >>
    >> you did exactly the same thing you are critisizing him for doing.

    >
    >
    > And so did you.


    you are lying. i criticized only Ben Kaufman for his hypocrisy. why did you
    post such a lie?
     
  6. james g. keegan jr. wrote:

    > Usenet Sociopath <[email protected]> wrote in
    > news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> james g. keegan jr. wrote:
    >>
    >>> Ben Kaufman <[email protected]> wrote in
    >>> news:[email protected]:
    >>>
    >>>> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 02:38:07 -0500, "David W. Poole, Jr."
    >>>>
    >>>> Your inconsiderate cross posting speaks louder than anything else you
    >>>> have to say.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> you did exactly the same thing you are critisizing him for doing.

    >>
    >>
    >> And so did you.

    >
    > you are lying. i criticized only Ben Kaufman for his hypocrisy.


    Criticizing someone for his hypocrisy, while engaging in hypocrisy, is a
    hypocrisy.

    > why did
    > you post such a lie?


    ditto
     
  7. Usenet Sociopath <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > james g. keegan jr. wrote:
    >
    >> Usenet Sociopath <[email protected]> wrote in
    >> news:[email protected]:
    >>
    >>> james g. keegan jr. wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Ben Kaufman <[email protected]> wrote in
    >>>> news:[email protected]:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 02:38:07 -0500, "David W. Poole, Jr."
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Your inconsiderate cross posting speaks louder than anything else you
    >>>>> have to say.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> you did exactly the same thing you are critisizing him for doing.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> And so did you.

    >>
    >> you are lying. i criticized only Ben Kaufman for his hypocrisy.

    >
    > Criticizing someone for his hypocrisy, while engaging in hypocrisy, is a
    > hypocrisy.



    which has nothing to do with your lie nor your motives for lying.
     
  8. Ray Fischer

    Ray Fischer Guest

    David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    > [email protected] (Ray Fischer)


    >>>>>You're attacking my view,
    >>>>
    >>>>I am attacking your pretense that you get to speak for God.
    >>>>
    >>>>You do not.
    >>>
    >>>And you do?

    >>
    >>I don't claim to.

    >
    >Nor do I. But I read enough to know that the Bible doesn't condone
    >abortion, and it appears rather obvious that it condemns it.


    Where's your Bible quote?

    Or are you just parroting the sleazy lies of others?

    >>>>>>>Biology taught me that it takes human sperm to fertilize a human egg.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>That much is mostly true.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Or at least it would require manipulation, or a sperm donor with 23
    >>>>>chromosomes.
    >>>>
    >>>>But a fertilized egg isn't a human.
    >>>
    >>>Yes it is.

    >>
    >>Stop lying. According to milenia of human legal and social tradition
    >>across the world, the life of a human being starts at birth.

    >
    >How long after the mother begins having contractions do you believe an
    >abortion is an adequate option?


    Now you're trying to change the subject because you cannot distinguish
    between the issue of whether a fetus is a human being and when it's
    appropriate (not "adequate") to do an abortion.

    >>>>>A human is called many things during the period of it's existence.
    >>>>>Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, adolescent, adult, and corpse,
    >>>>>to name a few.
    >>>>
    >>>>Don't forget sperm and egg.
    >>>
    >>>Since sperm and egg cells are germs, they aren't humans.

    >>
    >>1) They are not germs.
    >>2) You're an idiot.

    >
    >Main Entry: sperm
    >1 a : SEMEN b : a male gamete
    >2 : a product (as spermaceti or oil) of the sperm whale
    >
    >Main Entry: gam·ete
    >: a mature male or female germ cell usually possessing a haploid chromosome set and capable of initiating formation of a new diploid individual by fusion with a gamete of the opposite sex


    Note: "Germ cell" not "germ: a microorganism causing disease".

    And your entire argument rests on the premise that YOU get to decide
    what is or is not a human being, ignoring thousands of years of legal
    and social tradition that says different.

    >>>>Oh, wait, you think that you're the equal of God and that YOU get to
    >>>>decide what is or is not a human being, regardless of law, tradition,
    >>>>or society.
    >>>>
    >>>>You're just a self-centered control freak with delusions of godhood.
    >>>
    >>>You differ from this how?

    >>
    >>I don't make up my own rules and expect others to obey.

    >
    >Seems like you do to me.


    Seems like you're a dishonest idiot.

    >>> Provide a biblical reference that says
    >>>abortion is ok.

    >>
    >>Numbers 5 describes a forced abortion. And there is what Jesus said
    >>in Matthew 5:39-41 and there's Exodus 20:17.
    >>
    >>All of which deny you ANY claim over a woman's body.

    >
    >So you think Exodus 20:17 supersedes Exodus 20:13?


    You kill every day. Why do you expect people to obey the Bible when
    you do not?

    Of course, you're probably too "intelligent" to realize that the
    Bible wasn't written in English and that a correct translation of
    Exodus 20:13 is "Don't murder" and that abortion is not and has never
    been murder.

    >>> Let me try some smaller words and
    >>>see if it's clearer to you. A human sperm cell is not a human; it's a
    >>>germ.

    >>
    >>LOL!

    >
    >Look it up.
    >
    >>1) The word you're trying to think of not "germ" but "gamete" or
    >> perhaps "germ cell".

    >
    >The word I thought up is referenced above.


    You're still an idiot.

    >>2) An embryo is no more a human than is an egg. The point which you
    >> were too "intelligent" to notice was that YOUR opinion about what
    >> marks the start of a human being isn't the truth. It's just the
    >> opinion of an egotistical idiot.

    >
    >Ditto, with the exception of the first sentence.


    It's not my opinion, asshole. I look at the laws and social
    traditions of humanity going back thousands of years and acroos the
    world. Birth has been and is the even which marks the start of a
    human being's life.

    We celebrate BIRTHdays. Not "conceptiondays".

    --
    Ray Fischer
    [email protected]
     
  9. On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:16:08 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:

    >David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> [email protected] (Ray Fischer)

    >
    >>>>>>You're attacking my view,
    >>>>>
    >>>>>I am attacking your pretense that you get to speak for God.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>You do not.
    >>>>
    >>>>And you do?
    >>>
    >>>I don't claim to.

    >>
    >>Nor do I. But I read enough to know that the Bible doesn't condone
    >>abortion, and it appears rather obvious that it condemns it.

    >
    >Where's your Bible quote?


    Like you told me before when I asked you for a quote, look it up.

    >Or are you just parroting the sleazy lies of others?


    No, I'm reading the Bible. You should try it sometime.

    >>>>>>>>Biology taught me that it takes human sperm to fertilize a human egg.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>That much is mostly true.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Or at least it would require manipulation, or a sperm donor with 23
    >>>>>>chromosomes.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>But a fertilized egg isn't a human.
    >>>>
    >>>>Yes it is.
    >>>
    >>>Stop lying. According to milenia of human legal and social tradition
    >>>across the world, the life of a human being starts at birth.

    >>
    >>How long after the mother begins having contractions do you believe an
    >>abortion is an adequate option?

    >
    >Now you're trying to change the subject because you cannot distinguish
    >between the issue of whether a fetus is a human being and when it's
    >appropriate (not "adequate") to do an abortion.


    No, I've made the statement numerous times when a human being is
    created. You have done nothing to prove otherwise, and are again
    attempting to change the subject.

    Let's put it this way, since you like to pose rhetorical questions.
    Mary conceived out of wedlock; would you have aborted Jesus's fetus?
    Consider Matthew 25:31-46 before answering.

    >>>>>>A human is called many things during the period of it's existence.
    >>>>>>Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, adolescent, adult, and corpse,
    >>>>>>to name a few.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Don't forget sperm and egg.
    >>>>
    >>>>Since sperm and egg cells are germs, they aren't humans.
    >>>
    >>>1) They are not germs.
    >>>2) You're an idiot.

    >>
    >>Main Entry: sperm
    >>1 a : SEMEN b : a male gamete
    >>2 : a product (as spermaceti or oil) of the sperm whale
    >>
    >>Main Entry: gam·ete
    >>: a mature male or female germ cell usually possessing a haploid chromosome set and capable of initiating formation of a new diploid individual by fusion with a gamete of the opposite sex

    >
    >Note: "Germ cell" not "germ: a microorganism causing disease".


    Still a germ cell.

    >And your entire argument rests on the premise that YOU get to decide
    >what is or is not a human being, ignoring thousands of years of legal
    >and social tradition that says different.


    Interesting; the entry for gamete above states "capable of initiating
    formation of a new diploid individual by fusion with a gamete of the
    opposite sex." Seems the dictionary makes the distinction of when life
    begins disagrees with you.

    >>>>>Oh, wait, you think that you're the equal of God and that YOU get to
    >>>>>decide what is or is not a human being, regardless of law, tradition,
    >>>>>or society.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>You're just a self-centered control freak with delusions of godhood.
    >>>>
    >>>>You differ from this how?
    >>>
    >>>I don't make up my own rules and expect others to obey.

    >>
    >>Seems like you do to me.

    >
    >Seems like you're a dishonest idiot.


    Again your hypocrisy is noted. Here's some scripture for you: Matthew
    7:1-5. Verses 3-5 should be particularly noteworthy; you should study
    and understand them before moving on to "advanced" concepts.

    >>>> Provide a biblical reference that says
    >>>>abortion is ok.
    >>>
    >>>Numbers 5 describes a forced abortion. And there is what Jesus said
    >>>in Matthew 5:39-41 and there's Exodus 20:17.
    >>>
    >>>All of which deny you ANY claim over a woman's body.

    >>
    >>So you think Exodus 20:17 supersedes Exodus 20:13?

    >
    >You kill every day. Why do you expect people to obey the Bible when
    >you do not?


    Now you're accusing me of being a murderer? Thanks for your continued
    demonstration of your detachment from reality.

    >Of course, you're probably too "intelligent" to realize that the
    >Bible wasn't written in English and that a correct translation of
    >Exodus 20:13 is "Don't murder" and that abortion is not and has never
    >been murder.


    I understand well that the Bible wasn't written in english. That's why
    I have numerous translations of it, including a parallel Bible, as
    well as an interlinear and a number of hebrew, greek, and aramaic
    language lexicons.

    >>>> Let me try some smaller words and
    >>>>see if it's clearer to you. A human sperm cell is not a human; it's a
    >>>>germ.
    >>>
    >>>LOL!

    >>
    >>Look it up.
    >>
    >>>1) The word you're trying to think of not "germ" but "gamete" or
    >>> perhaps "germ cell".

    >>
    >>The word I thought up is referenced above.

    >
    >You're still an idiot.


    The argument you provide in support of your belief of my idiocy is
    compelling. Thanks for showing me the errors of my ways. </sarcasm>

    >>>2) An embryo is no more a human than is an egg. The point which you
    >>> were too "intelligent" to notice was that YOUR opinion about what
    >>> marks the start of a human being isn't the truth. It's just the
    >>> opinion of an egotistical idiot.

    >>
    >>Ditto, with the exception of the first sentence.

    >
    >It's not my opinion, asshole. I look at the laws and social
    >traditions of humanity going back thousands of years and acroos the
    >world. Birth has been and is the even which marks the start of a
    >human being's life.
    >
    >We celebrate BIRTHdays. Not "conceptiondays".


    Several times in the Bible individuals curse the moment of their
    conception. Seems to me that they knew when they became human, and
    when life began. As less information flowed in those days than does
    now, it makes a statement that they were more informed than you, which
    is, in part, why their stories are recorded in God's word, and not
    yours.
     
  10. On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 04:06:46 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:

    >David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> [email protected] (Ray Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:

    >
    >>>>>>>>>>> > You are talking about human fetuses
    >>>>>>>>>>> >aren't you, and what would this fetus become if not a human in the
    >>>>>>>>>>> >image of God?
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> So killing sperm is murder?
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>*** I didn't say that.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>A lot of them become humans "in the image of God".
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>The vast majority of sperm do not find their intended target.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>So what? The majority of fertilized eggs are never born.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>Perhaps, but that trend isn't helped by abortion.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>You're trying to change the subject because your argument doesn't make
    >>>>>any sense.
    >>>>
    >>>>Nor, I'm afraid, does yours.
    >>>
    >>>Since I haven't stated mine yet it's obvious that you're just
    >>>bullshitting again.

    >>
    >>You're attacking my view,

    >
    >I am attacking your pretense that you get to speak for God.
    >
    >You do not.


    Nor do you, and so far you haven't demonstrated that your
    interpretation of God's word is any more accurate than mine.
    Furthermore, all you have done has demonstrated that your
    interpretation of God's word, as well as the dictionary, is far less
    accurate, and compound the issue by labeling me as an idiot due to
    your comprehension failures. Even LBMHBF is a more interesting troll
    than you.

    >>>>>>>> Average
    >>>>>>>>ejaculate is how many sperm cells? Only one of them, if conception is
    >>>>>>>>successful, becomes a human "in the image of God."
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>Since when do you speak for God?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>I didn't. I merely stated what you can find in any decent text book
    >>>>>>covering the human reproductive system.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Sorry, but you're full of shit. What you believe about biology has
    >>>>>obviously been corrupted by religious propaganda. Biology does NOT
    >>>>>claim that a fertilized egg is a human. Indeed, it would be stupid
    >>>>>to make such a claim since it isn't true.
    >>>>
    >>>>Biology taught me that it takes human sperm to fertilize a human egg.
    >>>
    >>>That much is mostly true.

    >>
    >>Or at least it would require manipulation, or a sperm donor with 23
    >>chromosomes.

    >
    >But a fertilized egg isn't a human.


    But it is. The male and female gamete combine to initiate the
    formation of a new being. When I write a piece of software and
    initiate a new thread or object, that thread or object comes into
    being the moment it's initiated, not at the completion of it's
    initialization, regardless of how complicated the initialization
    procedure is.

    >>>> Transplanting that fertilized egg into another mammal
    >>>>suitable for gestation will result in a human, not another member of
    >>>>the species carrying the fertilized egg, if the fetus survives the
    >>>>process.
    >>>
    >>>It won't.

    >>
    >>What will it be, then? If a human egg is put in a petri dish and
    >>fertilized with a human sperm, and implanted in an ape for gestation,
    >>what will the result be?

    >
    >A dead embryo.


    Avoidance of answering the question noted.

    If it's "just" an embryo, then those pressing for stem cell research
    would be able to make due with the embryos of cats, dogs, pigs, rats,
    deer, apes, or whatever. They can't; they want human embryos for their
    research.

    >>>And it's good to see you say that it would RESULT in a human and not
    >>>BE a human.

    >>
    >>A human is called many things during the period of it's existence.
    >>Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, adolescent, adult, and corpse,
    >>to name a few.

    >
    >Don't forget sperm and egg.
    >
    >Oh, wait, you think that you're the equal of God and that YOU get to
    >decide what is or is not a human being, regardless of law, tradition,
    >or society.


    Seems the tradition was outlined in the dictionary references I
    provided recently. Seems like you think you're equal to God to
    disregard that. Hypocrisy again noted.

    >You're just a self-centered control freak with delusions of godhood.


    You're real good at the beams and motes game.

    >>>>>>>When did God annouce that YOU should be the one to speak for God,
    >>>>>>>decide what is or is not a human being, and decide whether women
    >>>>>>>should or should not be forced to suffer?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>He didn't; I've merely provided references to what is in God's word.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Again you make claims about God's word that are just your opinion
    >>>>>and not God's word at all.
    >>>>
    >>>>Odd, I don't recall writing the Bible. I do recall reading it a few
    >>>>times.
    >>>
    >>>You're not quoting the Bible. You're making up your own rules.

    >>
    >>Huh? My first participation in this thread in support of John 1:1-4 &
    >>14. How is that making up my own rules?

    >
    >YOU tried to claim that those passages were some justification for
    >your desire to force peopel to do as you wish.


    And you seem to think twisting and distorting God's word to suit your
    needs is ok, and then accuse others of doing the same, and faulting
    them for it. How's that speck, brother?

    >>>>>>As for the embryo's viability without a woman, why bother changing
    >>>>>>the subject? The subject was whether or not human sperm was human
    >>>>>>life.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>A living human sperm is human life. That is obvious.
    >>>>
    >>>>No, a living human sperm cell is not human life.
    >>>
    >>>No? What kind of life is it? Canine? Equine?

    >>
    >>It's germatic until a successful fertilization occurs.

    >
    >So now you're reduced to making up silly words. Rather than just
    >admit that you might be wrong you resort to dishonesty.
    >
    >That must be that "christian" morality I hear about.


    Sorry, I thought you would understand the coined phrase. Hopefully the
    dictionary references I provided before may help you in your rather
    narrow-minded pursuit.
     
  11. junegill

    junegill Guest

  12. junegill wrote:
    > "David W. Poole, Jr."
    > <[email protected]> wrote

    in
    > message news:[email protected]
    > > On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 17:16:08 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    > > Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:

    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > > >>>> Provide a biblical reference that says
    > > >>>>abortion is ok.
    > > >>>
    > > >>>Numbers 5 describes a forced abortion.

    >
    > Why are you ignoring Numbers 5?
    >


    Perhaps because you're ignoring the rest of the Bible?
     
  13. Your inability to figure out how kill files work speaks louder than
    anythying else you have to say.
     
  14. Cartlon Shew

    Cartlon Shew Guest

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:16:24 -0600, duke <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:55:18 -0700, Cartlon Shew <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>>Are you packed?

    >
    >>Why should I be? If your God is real, he won't kill everyone* with
    >>another flood. If He's not real, I don't really have to worry about
    >>it, now do I?

    >
    >Oh, God is real alright. He said no more floods, but that's the OT concept of
    >physical death for the evil in the world.
    >
    >Now it's the NT spiritual death, or spending an eternity in hell for what you
    >did in this lifetime. Use it wisely. God is waiting on you to wise up and
    >change your ways. And that's not a threat - it's a promise.
    >
    >>Salvation, as espoused by some Xian sects works pretty much the same
    >>way. Accept JC as your savior, and you're in! That cannot be taken
    >>away. You are now free to move about the country - and sin.

    >
    >Wrong. A very, very few Christians do espouse such a thing. But only a few
    >confused ones. You would think that eventually they would understand the reason
    >we have the sacrament of confession.


    "Sacrament"?

    Doesn't that make you a bead-counter?

    BTW - even Christian sects who do believe in the permanence of
    Salvation also believe in confession.

    "Believe on the Lord Jeebus Christ and thou shalt be saved"

    "It is a gift of god, not of works, lest any man should boast"

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our
    sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"



    >
    >And dishonesty in the confessional is no honesty at all.


    Most Xians don't have "confessionals"

    >
    >
    >duke
    >*****
    >Matthew 22
    >14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."
    >*****
     
  15. Ok, I read Numbers 5 in NIV, NKJV, KJV, NASB, and NLT. I still don't
    see the abortion reference.
     
  16. Learn how to use killfiles or ignores (if you can).
     
  17. That the best you can do? Can't figure out how to killfile or ignore
    someone?
     
  18. The_Sage

    The_Sage Guest

    >Reply to article by: duke <[email protected]>
    >Date written: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 04:43:34 -0600
    >MsgID:<[email protected]>


    >Abortion is the most disgusting ultimate
    >act of selfishness - butchering the unborn for the comfort and convenience of
    >the mother.


    There is something much worse than abortion and it is committed by people who
    call themselves "pro-life". As far as these people are concerned, after the
    child is born to Hell with it. These people fight against abortion and vote for
    taxes to support anti-abortion but they do not want any taxes to go and see that
    every child has a chance to be well educated or fed or housed. That certainly is
    not pro-life but merely only pro-birth.

    The Sage

    =============================================================
    My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage

    "The men that American people admire most extravagantly are
    most daring liars; the men they detest the most violently are
    those who try to tell them the truth" -- H. L. Mencken
    =============================================================
     
  19. Ray Fischer

    Ray Fischer Guest

    David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 04:06:46 GMT, [email protected] (Ray
    >Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:
    >
    >>David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>> [email protected] (Ray Fischer) was understood to have stated the following:

    >>
    >>>>>>>>>>>> > You are talking about human fetuses
    >>>>>>>>>>>> >aren't you, and what would this fetus become if not a human in the
    >>>>>>>>>>>> >image of God?
    >>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>> So killing sperm is murder?
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>*** I didn't say that.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>A lot of them become humans "in the image of God".
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>The vast majority of sperm do not find their intended target.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>So what? The majority of fertilized eggs are never born.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>Perhaps, but that trend isn't helped by abortion.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>You're trying to change the subject because your argument doesn't make
    >>>>>>any sense.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Nor, I'm afraid, does yours.
    >>>>
    >>>>Since I haven't stated mine yet it's obvious that you're just
    >>>>bullshitting again.
    >>>
    >>>You're attacking my view,

    >>
    >>I am attacking your pretense that you get to speak for God.
    >>
    >>You do not.

    >
    >Nor do you,


    I don't try to. Not once have I insisted that anybody obey my
    interpretation of the Bible.

    >>>>>>Sorry, but you're full of shit. What you believe about biology has
    >>>>>>obviously been corrupted by religious propaganda. Biology does NOT
    >>>>>>claim that a fertilized egg is a human. Indeed, it would be stupid
    >>>>>>to make such a claim since it isn't true.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>Biology taught me that it takes human sperm to fertilize a human egg.
    >>>>
    >>>>That much is mostly true.
    >>>
    >>>Or at least it would require manipulation, or a sperm donor with 23
    >>>chromosomes.

    >>
    >>But a fertilized egg isn't a human.

    >
    >But it is.


    That's known to be untrue.

    > The male and female gamete combine to initiate the
    >formation of a new being.


    The gametocyte forms the new being.

    It is YOUR OPINION that a being is formed at fertilization.

    >>>>And it's good to see you say that it would RESULT in a human and not
    >>>>BE a human.
    >>>
    >>>A human is called many things during the period of it's existence.
    >>>Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, toddler, adolescent, adult, and corpse,
    >>>to name a few.

    >>
    >>Don't forget sperm and egg.
    >>
    >>Oh, wait, you think that you're the equal of God and that YOU get to
    >>decide what is or is not a human being, regardless of law, tradition,
    >>or society.

    >
    >Seems the tradition was outlined in the dictionary references I
    >provided recently.


    All of which mark the start of a human being's life at birth.

    >>>>You're not quoting the Bible. You're making up your own rules.
    >>>
    >>>Huh? My first participation in this thread in support of John 1:1-4 &
    >>>14. How is that making up my own rules?

    >>
    >>YOU tried to claim that those passages were some justification for
    >>your desire to force peopel to do as you wish.

    >
    >And you seem to think twisting and distorting God's word to suit your
    >needs is ok,


    To make the point that you don't like it when others do what you are
    doing.

    >>>>No? What kind of life is it? Canine? Equine?
    >>>
    >>>It's germatic until a successful fertilization occurs.

    >>
    >>So now you're reduced to making up silly words. Rather than just
    >>admit that you might be wrong you resort to dishonesty.
    >>
    >>That must be that "christian" morality I hear about.

    >
    >Sorry, I thought you would understand the coined phrase.


    Sorry, I thought you might understand why lying is immoral.

    --
    Ray Fischer
    [email protected]
     
  20. Ray Fischer

    Ray Fischer Guest

    David W. Poole, Jr. <[email protected]> wrote:
    > [email protected] (Ray Fischer)


    >>>>>>>You're attacking my view,
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>I am attacking your pretense that you get to speak for God.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>You do not.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>And you do?
    >>>>
    >>>>I don't claim to.
    >>>
    >>>Nor do I. But I read enough to know that the Bible doesn't condone
    >>>abortion, and it appears rather obvious that it condemns it.

    >>
    >>Where's your Bible quote?

    >
    >Like you told me before when I asked you for a quote, look it up.


    In other words, you don't have any. You're just spewing the usual
    lies from the right-wing religious fanatics.

    >>>>Stop lying. According to milenia of human legal and social tradition
    >>>>across the world, the life of a human being starts at birth.
    >>>
    >>>How long after the mother begins having contractions do you believe an
    >>>abortion is an adequate option?

    >>
    >>Now you're trying to change the subject because you cannot distinguish
    >>between the issue of whether a fetus is a human being and when it's
    >>appropriate (not "adequate") to do an abortion.

    >
    >No, I've made the statement numerous times when a human being is
    >created.


    And you have been wrong every single time.

    > You have done nothing to prove otherwise


    That's a lie.

    >Let's put it this way, since you like to pose rhetorical questions.
    >Mary conceived out of wedlock; would you have aborted Jesus's fetus?


    I'm not a control freak like you. I don't try to force women to
    do as I say. I'm not a self-righteous and judgemental hypcorite like
    you.

    >>And your entire argument rests on the premise that YOU get to decide
    >>what is or is not a human being, ignoring thousands of years of legal
    >>and social tradition that says different.

    >
    >Interesting; the entry for gamete above states "capable of initiating
    >formation of a new diploid individual by fusion with a gamete of the
    >opposite sex." Seems the dictionary makes the distinction of when life
    >begins disagrees with you.


    It says nothing at all about when a human's life begins.

    Can you read?

    >>>>I don't make up my own rules and expect others to obey.
    >>>
    >>>Seems like you do to me.

    >>
    >>Seems like you're a dishonest idiot.

    >
    >Again your hypocrisy is noted.


    Again your lack of evidence is noted.

    > Here's some scripture for you: Matthew
    >7:1-5.


    Apply that to yourself, hypocrite. You're the one who insists that
    you should be allowed to judge women and force them to behave
    according to your rules.

    >>>>> Provide a biblical reference that says
    >>>>>abortion is ok.
    >>>>
    >>>>Numbers 5 describes a forced abortion. And there is what Jesus said
    >>>>in Matthew 5:39-41 and there's Exodus 20:17.
    >>>>
    >>>>All of which deny you ANY claim over a woman's body.
    >>>
    >>>So you think Exodus 20:17 supersedes Exodus 20:13?

    >>
    >>You kill every day. Why do you expect people to obey the Bible when
    >>you do not?

    >
    >Now you're accusing me of being a murderer?


    Are you illiterate? Where did I say anything about murder?

    >>Of course, you're probably too "intelligent" to realize that the
    >>Bible wasn't written in English and that a correct translation of
    >>Exodus 20:13 is "Don't murder" and that abortion is not and has never
    >>been murder.

    >
    >I understand well that the Bible wasn't written in english. That's why
    >I have numerous translations of it, including a parallel Bible, as
    >well as an interlinear and a number of hebrew, greek, and aramaic
    >language lexicons.


    Then explain to all of us how a rule about not committing murder has
    anything to do with the topic of abortion.

    And then explain how it gives you any right to enforce your
    interpretation of the Bible.

    >>>>2) An embryo is no more a human than is an egg. The point which you
    >>>> were too "intelligent" to notice was that YOUR opinion about what
    >>>> marks the start of a human being isn't the truth. It's just the
    >>>> opinion of an egotistical idiot.
    >>>
    >>>Ditto, with the exception of the first sentence.

    >>
    >>It's not my opinion, asshole. I look at the laws and social
    >>traditions of humanity going back thousands of years and acroos the
    >>world. Birth has been and is the even which marks the start of a
    >>human being's life.
    >>
    >>We celebrate BIRTHdays. Not "conceptiondays".

    >
    >Several times in the Bible individuals curse the moment of their
    >conception.


    The Bible also claims that people are create not in a woman's womb but
    in the depths of the earth.

    And it also says that God knows us BEFORE conception, so is killing
    sperm and egg murder?

    > Seems to me that they knew when they became human, and
    >when life began.


    When sperm and egg are created?

    --
    Ray Fischer
    [email protected]
     
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