Share your sprint workouts



fergie said:
That's one, so what other performance improvements (ie results in races) have people experienced using this technology.

I think this important because we need to know if these numbers actually mean anything. As you know I feel the TSS is nowhere near reflective of all that makes up cycling performance and basing your training on it will leave you short of the mark. Not only does it not take into account fatigue but what of motivation, hydration, glycogen levels etc???

FTR After getting motivational with a pursuiter she has dropped her 2km time from 3.12.2 to 2.49.8 on the same track. Next week we find out if it actually means anything at NZ Track Nationals.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
Hi Fergie. I dont employ the tech stuff like most of the other guys here, but it makes training more fun me. Its freezing cold here, so workouts have to get creative. On clear days I warm up on the trainer, and then do intervals in front of the house. Between sets my bike and I stay warm in the kitchen looking at the set on the pc...no cake ..Also the power profiling on peaks adds fun for me. Gives me tagets other than mph. Then again my view is not from the elite group as you and ACs riders are. Besides I dont have a quality coach barking at me on a daily bassis:) . Good luck at your Natz. Thanks BP Did I justify my $1200 yet???:)
 
fergie said:
That's one, so what other performance improvements (ie results in races) have people experienced using this technology.
By technology, are you questioning PM's in general as a tool for training? Or something more specific?

fergie said:
I think this important because we need to know if these numbers actually mean anything.
If the race results don't follow the training results, does that bring into question the validity of the training tools, or help identify a race-specific weakness that also needs to be addressed separately (ie, planning, tactics, tapering, equipment, coaching, etc.)? By having a direct performance measuring technology like a PM (mostly talking about roadies here, since 'time over distance' doesn't mean as much on the road as it would on a track), training inadequacies can be removed as a potential cause of poor race performance.
 
frenchyge said:
By technology, are you questioning PM's in general as a tool for training? Or something more specific?

Never questioned PM's (can't wait to get my one for my bike) just the use of TSS.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
 
fergie said:
Never questioned PM's (can't wait to get my one for my bike) just the use of TSS.
I'm not surprised. If one hasn't trained with power, one doesn't have an appreciation of NP. If one doesn't have an appreciate of NP, one doesn't have an appreciation of IF. If one doesn't have an appreciation of IF, one doesn't have an appreciation of TSS. In fact, I'd be very surprised if you did have an appreciation of TSS (or IF or NP).
 
RapDaddyo said:
I'm not surprised. If one hasn't trained with power, one doesn't have an appreciation of NP. If one doesn't have an appreciate of NP, one doesn't have an appreciation of IF. If one doesn't have an appreciation of IF, one doesn't have an appreciation of TSS. In fact, I'd be very surprised if you did have an appreciation of TSS (or IF or NP).
That is true RD.

But if one has an appreciation of TRIMPS, one should see an imediate benefit in using TSS. Or if one has an appreciation of duration, and power taken separately, then why questioning the combined effect of both? Frankly, I don't get it.

But anyway, I don't want to hijack the thread, it was supposed to be dealing with sprint stuff.
 
SolarEnergy said:
But if one has an appreciation of TRIMPS, one should see an imediate benefit in using TSS. Or if one has an appreciation of duration, and power taken separately, then why questioning the combined effect of both? Frankly, I don't get it.
I agree. In fact, Andy references TRIMPS in his discussion of the derivation of NP, IF and TSS. I likewise don't get it.

SolarEnergy said:
But anyway, I don't want to hijack the thread, it was supposed to be dealing with sprint stuff.
I think we killed that horse about 100 posts ago.
 
fergie said:
just the use of TSS.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
What's the problem with TSS? Do you feel there is another measure of training load that is better?
 
SolarEnergy said:
I don't think one single algorythm can encapsulate all the possible variables that affect training and racing.

Glad to hear someone else realises this.

All right. Let me put it this way. A rider tells you : I did a ride today. You probably wander : how long was your ride? He answers, well does it matter? Time doesn't take into account that I was tired from yesterday rides. So a 120min ride today, is different than a 120min ride after 2 days off. Therefore, why bothering about the riding time?

Well yes it does. Why would he do a 2 hour ride if tired from the day before. Because I use Power Data with some of my riders I would be able to use that and other factors to determine that if the 2 hour ride the day before was intense enough that he will do an easier ride today. If it was a stage race I would suggest that they take it easy in this stage unless it was the last stage and there was nothing to lose.

TSS, when you learn to manipulate it, is better than getting the riding time, better than getting the intensity, because it puts the two in relation. That is just a extra piece of data. Just data.

Yeah, just not enough for my satisfaction. And trust me after a lab test, training session or track workout I am like a little Goblin clutching my hard earned data and spend the next few hours making sense of it all.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
 
RapDaddyo said:
I'm not surprised. If one hasn't trained with power, one doesn't have an appreciation of NP. If one doesn't have an appreciate of NP, one doesn't have an appreciation of IF. If one doesn't have an appreciation of IF, one doesn't have an appreciation of TSS. In fact, I'd be very surprised if you did have an appreciation of TSS (or IF or NP).

Who said I didn't train or coach with Power. I don't have a powermeter on my bike. This is not to say I don't work with athletes who either have power meters, ergs that measure power or work out power output based on times done at the track.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
 
fergie said:
Who said I didn't train or coach with Power. I don't have a powermeter on my bike. This is not to say I don't work with athletes who either have power meters, ergs that measure power or work out power output based on times done at the track.
I would have expected that. What coach (in a country with modern things like, say, electricity) doesn't have athletes who ride with PMs? But, I think the distinction is significant. So as to not make this personal, I'll generalize my comments. In areas of keen interest to me (all areas of interest), one of the most important decisions I make is how much credibility to attach to those who put forward ideas, points of view, opinions, analysis or research. Before I invest much time studying someone's thesis, I look at the credentials of the source. Coming back to this topic, I know from my personal experience in the last 7 months that there is no substitute for training and racing with power. Take NP as an example. I take that as an example because its significance is huge. NP is intended to reduce a variable power ride (which is basically every ride for a roadie) to its constant power equivalent. Now, if a competitive cyclist knows how to exploit that information (and many don't), that is huge. To appreciate NP, I don't think there is any substitute for riding many different courses with many different power profiles ranging from virtually constant power to highly variable power and at or near one's maximum sustainable power. I have done that. I have tested NP under all sorts of conditions, short rides and long rides, fresh and tired. I have raced a few races with power and have studied my power data post-race. The same thing goes for IF and TSS, which are derived directly from NP. I believe I can state without hesitation that I would not understand riding with power and the significance of NP, IF and TSS if I had not personally trained and raced with power. Now, don't misread my point. I am not proclaiming myself as an expert at riding with power. Compared to many on this forum alone, my experience is miniscule. I am a novice. But, I read extensively about power meters and riding with power (including everything on this forum -- that's right, I read every single post about riding with power) before plunking down $1200 for my PT SL. Yet, training and racing with power has enhanced my understanding of this incredible device and companion tools such as the CP software by at least an order of magnitude. One of the reasons I attach so much significance to Andy and Ric on this forum is that they train and race with power themselves and have done so for many years. Andy told a story on this forum about a TT he rode some years back the day after a multi-hour, hard RR the day before. IIRC, he said that the RR had left him completely drained, but that he was able to put out nis normal power in the TT. I paid a lot of attention to that post because he was saying that his body gave him misleading signals. Others on this forum (too many to name) have tons of experience training and racing with power. I read their posts very carefully. I don't always agree with their points of view, especially when my own experience contradicts theirs, but I read their posts very carefully. And, frankly, I expect people to apply the same standards to my posts. I usually try to provide the basis for whatever I put forward on this forum, but I am never, ever offended when someone asks, "What's your basis for saying that?"
 
RapDaddyo said:
"What's your basis for saying that?"

No problem with NP, all makes good sense to me.

Problem with TSS based on years of trying to come up with ways to quantify the WHOLE training experience.

Basis for being pedantic about this: years of producing winning cyclists!

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
 
fergie said:
Problem with TSS based on years of trying to come up with ways to quantify the WHOLE training experience.

So basically you're saying that because you couldn't do it, it simply can't be done... ;)

FWIW, you're not the only person to express theoretical objections to TSS, due to the fact that it is difficult, if not impossible, to truly measure all of the things that may influence an athlete's response to training. IMO, however, that's like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and without even testing to see if the water is too hot or not. That is, if you take a good look at the scientific literature, you'll see that even quite simple models using relatively crude measures of the training load are nonetheless able to predict training-induced changes in performance with surprising accuracy. So, why not take advantage of the knowledge that has been gained via such studies (which is what TSS enables you to do, if you know how to best use it), rather than relying on a strictly seat-of-the-pants empirical approach?
 
fergie said:
Basis for being pedantic about this: years of producing winning cyclists!

Any of them win any Grand Tours? I know a coach who has trained one such rider, and he absolutely loves TSS and what it can do for him.
 
acoggan said:
Any of them win any Grand Tours? I know a coach who has trained one such rider, and he absolutely loves TSS and what it can do for him.
UCI Calender Tours, still looking to crack the big ones.

You mean Chris Carmichael? I think Lance is coached by committee and he is the chairman of the board.

Why throw out the baby? Well apart from detesting young children I think I can do better things with my power meter and all the other factors that make up winning bike racing.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
 
yzfrr11 said:
Lance has one coach - I think we all know who that is at this point!

An doesn't she has nice legs.

So would anyone care to convince me that TSS is going to cover enough bases (taking into account that I feel that cycle racing is a very multi faceted diamond) to make it worthwhile. RD has resorted to attacking me personally and Andy is making appeals to authority (shame seeing he recently chastised another person for doing this).

Seeing this is a thread about sprinting perhaps people using TSS would care to show me the data on how they used TSS to improve their results in the races. As a coach I can relate the hard work people have put in terms of being stronger aerobically meaning they get to the finish in better shape and therefore have a better chance to beat the sprinters if they havent dropped the sprinters way before the finish.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
 
fergie said:
An doesn't she has nice legs.

So would anyone care to convince me that TSS is going to cover enough bases (taking into account that I feel that cycle racing is a very multi faceted diamond) to make it worthwhile. RD has resorted to attacking me personally and Andy is making appeals to authority (shame seeing he recently chastised another person for doing this).

Seeing this is a thread about sprinting perhaps people using TSS would care to show me the data on how they used TSS to improve their results in the races. As a coach I can relate the hard work people have put in terms of being stronger aerobically meaning they get to the finish in better shape and therefore have a better chance to beat the sprinters if they havent dropped the sprinters way before the finish.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
I'm not a powermeter/tss user, so I may not be the best person to stick up for it. However, I have a few questions:

What do you think people are trying to get out of tss?

Do you think that tss fails to accurately calculate training stress?

And, again, what is your preferred metric for measuring training load?



I think you're thinking that tss users are putting more emphasis on it than they really are (wow that was confusing!).
 
I'm confused, is Andy...

fergie said:
making appeals to authority...
or is he...

fergie said:
show[ing you] the data on how [someone] used TSS to improve their results in the races...
???

In all honesty, you just sound like someone who is attempting to discredit a "rival" without providing anything of your own that might be more useful. No matter what the system, you can always complain that it doesn't fully consider the complexities inherent in riding a bicycle. So guess what, your system fails by the same standard.

Explain how you'd do it better, and you'll prove yourself useful.

Iktome
Cycling Coach (not really, but then, would you know?)
 
fergie said:
So would anyone care to convince me that TSS is going to cover enough bases (taking into account that I feel that cycle racing is a very multi faceted diamond) to make it worthwhile.
Not I. I use it myself in place of 'hours' or 'miles' (like I used in years past) to help quantify my training load, but I'm just a self-coached, low-level athlete. If I had your many years of experience working with coaches and elite athletes, my perspective *might* be different. In any case, there's no way I'm going to try to say it's the end-all be-all solution for everyone, but I haven't seen anyone else really saying that either.
 
fergie said:
So would anyone care to convince me that TSS is going to cover enough bases

Seeing this is a thread about sprinting perhaps people using TSS would care to show me the data on how they used TSS to improve their results in the races.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

TSS isn't that useful for looking at a single workout, rather it's good for painting a picture of your training's macrostructure. Read here and get back with us: http://fascatcoaching.com/TSTWKT.htm

I've seen it, it works.