Weight Lifting & Cycling??

[edd]

For those who are seriously into muscle adaptation
you may find this pdf article interesting

http://www.ptjournal.org/PTJournal/November2001/ad110101810p.pdf

 

[pallwright]

Dear Ric,

Thanks for the really good research into weight training and cycling performance. I found it really interesting. Based on the findings of your research and the need to improve one's aerobic capacity; what other exercise - besides cycling - would you recommend to improve one's aerobic capacity and hence cycling performance?

Thanks

Pete

 

[ric_stern/RST]

pete,

glad you found the work informative. assuming that you're a racing cyclist and enduranced based (e.g. track endurance, MTB, X, RR, TT, etc) then i *wouldn't* suggest another exercise to increase cycling performance, apart from some form of cycling X training (e.g. if you're a roadie, you may want to try some MTBing -- but that's purely for a change rather than an increase in fitness).

on the other hand i'd only suggest a different modality if for some reason you couldn't cycle (e.g. away on business), in which case the X training activity could be used the lessen the magnitude of decrease, rather than a gain

Ric

 

[aytchkay]

Oh you guys!!! You are picking on each other over every word....."
I" think that weight training, when done "correctly", and with some good training, can benefit everyone. It might not get you to beat Lance, but it will help you in many ways. Most cycling books I read encourage weight training, especially in the off-season.
So get off that elitist soap box and tell the guy what are the best exercises for cyclists....or check out 'roadbikerider.com'. They've got great books and advise - without the sarcasm too!
Ride for fun....ride for fitness......just ride....

 

[supersaiyan]

I have a question for edd:

Isn't the force that your leg can produce over a period of time linked via a percentage of your 1 RM? Just as how many time you can lift a weight 30 times is linked to your 1 RM, isn't how many times you can pedal at a sustained cadence and force, related to how hard you can push the pedal for just one revolution? I know that the percentage of your max that you cycle at is tiny, but wouldn't increasing your squat strength significantly without an increase in body weight improve both your max power and increase the amount of force you can generate over a great distance because the value that you are getting your endurance percentage from is increased.

Example:

You can squat 300 lbs before training and can produce maybe 5% of this force for a 3 hour bike ride. (I'm making up example figures here)

If you increase your squat to 400 lbs, wouldn't your 5% force increase also? I have read that your muscular endurance is linked to how strong you are because of how much less muscle fiber is needed.

 

[pallwright]

Originally posted by ricstern
pete,

glad you found the work informative. assuming that you're a racing cyclist and enduranced based (e.g. track endurance, MTB, X, RR, TT, etc) then i *wouldn't* suggest another exercise to increase cycling performance, apart from some form of cycling X training (e.g. if you're a roadie, you may want to try some MTBing -- but that's purely for a change rather than an increase in fitness).

on the other hand i'd only suggest a different modality if for some reason you couldn't cycle (e.g. away on business), in which case the X training activity could be used the lessen the magnitude of decrease, rather than a gain

Ric

Dear Ric,

I am a racing cyclist and endurance based - I focus on the road during summer and MTB during the winter. I was asking the question about aerobic capacity because my sports science coach in South Africa also states that the best form of training - including strength training - is on the bike - and because I have fractured bones and torn ligaments in my hand and am looking at maintaining my aerobic capacity whilst I am off the bike.

Regards

Peter

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by aytchkay
Oh you guys!!! You are picking on each other over every word....."
I" think that weight training, when done "correctly", and with some good training, can benefit everyone. It might not get you to beat Lance, but it will help you in many ways. Most cycling books I read encourage weight training, especially in the off-season.
So get off that elitist soap box and tell the guy what are the best exercises for cyclists....or check out 'roadbikerider.com'. They've got great books and advise - without the sarcasm too!
Ride for fun....ride for fitness......just ride....

i've explained, along with a couple of others, that in the case of cyclists who do endurance racing (and in well trained non-racers too) that weight training will not benefit cycling performance.

sure, a lot of cycling books spout that you need to do weights, however, these books are wrong (when talking about the cycling types above). some of these people (who wrote these books) are now (with the advent of power meters, mathematical modelling and physics) beginning to change their advice.

It's long been known (in sports science) that weights are unlikely to help and frequently cause a decrease in performance, for some reason that information hasn't made it through to some coaches. whether that's because the information isn't disseminated well in the first place, or because some coaches aren't interested in facts i don't know.

ric

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by ricstern
pete,

glad you found the work informative. assuming that you're a racing cyclist and enduranced based (e.g. track endurance, MTB, X, RR, TT, etc) then i *wouldn't* suggest another exercise to increase cycling performance, apart from some form of cycling X training (e.g. if you're a roadie, you may want to try some MTBing -- but that's purely for a change rather than an increase in fitness).

on the other hand i'd only suggest a different modality if for some reason you couldn't cycle (e.g. away on business), in which case the X training activity could be used the lessen the magnitude of decrease, rather than a gain

Ric

On the other hand, if you are untrained then any form of exercise will help your cycling (but not as much as cycling will!). As you get more trained, these other forms of training will help you less and less.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by pallwright
Dear Ric,

I am a racing cyclist and endurance based - I focus on the road during summer and MTB during the winter. I was asking the question about aerobic capacity because my sports science coach in South Africa also states that the best form of training - including strength training - is on the bike - and because I have fractured bones and torn ligaments in my hand and am looking at maintaining my aerobic capacity whilst I am off the bike.

Regards

Peter

that maybe a question fo your coach. however, my first thought is can you not ride your bike on an indoor trainer to maintain fitness?

ric

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by aytchkay
Oh you guys!!! You are picking on each other over every word....."
I" think that weight training, when done "correctly", and with some good training, can benefit everyone. It might not get you to beat Lance, but it will help you in many ways. Most cycling books I read encourage weight training, especially in the off-season.
So get off that elitist soap box and tell the guy what are the best exercises for cyclists....or check out 'roadbikerider.com'. They've got great books and advise - without the sarcasm too!
Ride for fun....ride for fitness......just ride....

Thats the point; while weight training might benefit everyone its unlikely to make you cycle faster in endurance events (except for a few cases mentioned before). Therefore reasons for strength training include... something else to do, rehab, etc. etc. but not to cycle faster (which is the training goal of most people). Could this be wasted time for some?

Its important to be specific with words, as its very hard to have a discussion forum when we all use the same words but attach different meanings to them. Thats not elitist at all.

 

[Aztec]

Ric,

This thread reminds me of a twisted Twilight Zone episode! Every time you seemingly squelch the challenger, another one rises to take up the cause. Much like the gunfighter who repeatedly takes on the new kid in town.

There will be an endless stream of these folks, Ric. Endless.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by Aztec
Ric,

This thread reminds me of a twisted Twilight Zone episode! Every time you seemingly squelch the challenger, another one rises to take up the cause. Much like the gunfighter who repeatedly takes on the new kid in town.

There will be an endless stream of these folks, Ric. Endless.

it's like a recurring nightmare

actually, it doesn't bother me at all... i just can't believe it's 20 pages long so far!

 

[supersaiyan]

I think that people need to realize that doing weight training doesn't mean that you don't train on your bike. You add weight training to your endurance rides and that makes you even better.

Cutting endurance training on your bike or indoors on a trainer will hurt you and weight lifting is no replacement for riding.

But when you add weight lifting to riding, it augments you and it builts anaerobic energy stores for sprints. It also decreases the amount of muscle fiber needed to maintain your pace. This allows your body to rest muscle fibers during a long ride and use others while still maintaing your pace. Endurance runners do this too.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

only with hypertrophy, which deals a double blow to your endurance cycling/aerobic performance

 

[supersaiyan]

Weight lifting doesn't necessarily mean hypertrophy. Power-lifters have to compete in weight classes. Wrestlers compete in weight classes. Boxers compete in weight classes. All these groups weight lifting and they gain hardly any weight at all.

Too many people think of body builders like Arnold and Mr. Olympia and Mr. Universe when they think of weight lifting. You can grow stronger without gaining weight. You just have to use the right program and keep doing aerobic exercise (cycling). The first key to any weight gain lifting routine is to cut all aerobic exercise and greatly increase calorie intake. If you keep doing aerobic exercise and keep your sets per body part below 10 and your reps out of the 5-10 range. (The prime body weight gain area), you will gain hardly any weight even after years of weight lifting. Besides, all professional and most aspiring body builders take steroids like crazy.

The human body will grow nowhere as much muscle as they do without steroids and the people who grow to a decent size even without intentionally trying to gain weight have a lot of fast-twitch muscle fibers. They wouldn't ever be good at endurance riding even if they didn't weight lift.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

but, as i've repeatedly pointed out the neuromuscular adaptations (i.e., not hypertrophy) do not transfer over, as they are specific to the joint angle and velocity at which they're trained.

Ric

 

[Aztec]

Originally posted by supersaiyan
Weight lifting doesn't necessarily mean hypertrophy. Power-lifters have to compete in weight classes. Wrestlers compete in weight classes. Boxers compete in weight classes. All these groups weight lifting and they gain hardly any weight at all.

Too many people think of body builders like Arnold and Mr. Olympia and Mr. Universe when they think of weight lifting. You can grow stronger without gaining weight. You just have to use the right program and keep doing aerobic exercise (cycling). The first key to any weight gain lifting routine is to cut all aerobic exercise and greatly increase calorie intake. If you keep doing aerobic exercise and keep your sets per body part below 10 and your reps out of the 5-10 range. (The prime body weight gain area), you will gain hardly any weight even after years of weight lifting. Besides, all professional and most aspiring body builders take steroids like crazy.

The human body will grow nowhere as much muscle as they do without steroids and the people who grow to a decent size even without intentionally trying to gain weight have a lot of fast-twitch muscle fibers. They wouldn't ever be good at endurance riding even if they didn't weight lift.

Finally, someone besides Ric said something that's at least partially correct. If you ride, and ride enough so that you care about your performance, there is no way, NO WAY, you are going to gain weight from lifting aside from a couple immaterial pounds unless you are an absolute genetic freak.

But there is another downside. Like it or not, lifting -- especially squatting -- eats up your recovery 'budget.' You would be much better off using that recovery for putting more time in on the bike. Period.

 

[edd]

Originally posted by supersaiyan
I have a question for edd:

Isn't the force that your leg can produce over a period of time linked via a percentage of your 1 RM? Just as how many time you can lift a weight 30 times is linked to your 1 RM, isn't how many times you can pedal at a sustained cadence and force, related to how hard you can push the pedal for just one revolution? I know that the percentage of your max that you cycle at is tiny, but wouldn't increasing your squat strength significantly without an increase in body weight improve both your max power and increase the amount of force you can generate over a great distance because the value that you are getting your endurance percentage from is increased.

Example:

You can squat 300 lbs before training and can produce maybe 5% of this force for a 3 hour bike ride. (I'm making up example figures here)

If you increase your squat to 400 lbs, wouldn't your 5% force increase also? I have read that your muscular endurance is linked to how strong you are because of how much less muscle fiber is needed.

From a neuromuscular point of view, yes this is true if you only have to turn the pedals three times.

The overwhelming astute opinion is: this won’t translate to improving your cycling.

The problem those supporting a weight training regime have to come to terms with is: some hypertrophy is likely to take place and hypertrophy is at odds with aerobic conditioning within the muscles.

And aerobic conditioning is what is going to improve your cycling performance

The interesting point and the reason I posted the site address above is that the development and contribution of “fatigue resistant fast twitch muscle fibers” in aerobic sports in not well understood, nor is the ability to develop them well understood.

Hence my probing and questions about “some sort of sub maximal force training”

KIS - keep it simple is the catch phrase of good strength trainers - the body is very complex all the science and terminology doesn’t even scratch the surface of what is really going on - there is over 130 different chemical reactions occurring in the body for every action you make.

Your body, your muscles adapts ( or attempts to adapt) to what ever stress you subject it too.

Sitting on the couch watching a cycling race has no physical training effect on one’s cycling ability, why would it ?

So how is hanging out in a weights room any different ? Think about the stimulus, what your body ( mind and muscle) has to adapt too.

Now I’m not saying that fooling with the stimulus is not a worth while experiment.

“ Do three heavy squats, then jump straight on a trainer and do five minutes at an increased power level ”
Is this going to have a training effect ? YEAH.
Is this going to be a useful training effect ? I DON’T KNOW.

 

[andrewbradley]

Originally posted by supersaiyan
but wouldn't increasing your squat strength significantly without an increase in body weight improve both your max power and increase the amount of force you can generate over a great distance because the value that you are getting your endurance percentage from is increased.

Endurance cycling is about getting oxygen to muscle fibres that can use it, but it is an interesting question as to how much training your 1RM squat with heavy weights moving slowly or even your "1RM pedal stroke" would help you in a track sprint.

A six week program of leg extension training that used a knee-opening speed of 60 degrees per second - call it 20RPM in bike terms - produced a 30% increase in "strength" (sic) at that slow speed . The increase in "strength" at 300 degrees per sec - call it 100RPM was virtually nil.
OTOH a program using 300 degrees per sec (100RPM) produced 15-20% strength gains at all speeds from "20RPM to 100RPM".

I am still wondering about the track sprinters.
Anyone know of a study backing up the general assumption that track sprinters need to use weights?
How much hypertrophy could you get from on-bike exercises alone in comparison?

 

[edd]

Originally posted by andrewbradley
I am still wondering about the track sprinters.
Anyone know of a study backing up the general assumption that track sprinters need to use weights?
How much hypertrophy could you get from on-bike exercises alone in comparison?

We're looking for volunteers, to get a muscle biopsy and then do three years of heavy hypertrophy training on the legs using combination of weight routines and super setting with 45 sec of super loads on a stationary bike - to grow the biggest legs ever. Get another muscle biopsy. Then abandon the strength work altogether and do 10 years doing aerobic / anaerobic conditioning , then subject them selves to a third muscle biopsy.

Then publish the results, I'd buy a copy, if it wasn't too expensive.

Who’s up for it ?