New Thread...Back to Cycling?? Maybe?



jsirabella

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Sorry all, could not think of a better name and figure my frustrations may get us off of SOT FTP and such and back to cycling. Anyway yesterday I did what I am trying to make into a weekly habit the Thursday night ride at CP. They meet up at 7pm by the boathouse and do 6 laps. My goal is to hang on for all 6 laps. I have no idea the level of the riders who show up as I only really know Zoli there as he arranges the ride. I can not start at 7pm as it will end by 9pm so I always go to the park bout 630 so I can end either at 830 or until my legs fall off whichever comes first. Lat night my legs fell off..lol

I always find CP one of the most frutsrating things to ride because of the course layout. It is just a constant up and down scenario where guys are either banging away at 300 or higher watts or what feels like none at all. I have attached all my charts so it may make more sense. Zoli tells me that the CT is all well and good but some people are good at short high intensity intervals but not at longer contstant power while others are the opposite. You have to find your speciality and pick races that are better suited for you.

So one thing I would ask am I better served on the trainer instead of just plugging in 260 watts and going for as long as I can instead do lots of shorter intervals (1-2 minutes) where you average the watts for lets say a 10-20 minute period? Will it make a difference?

Next the same thing always happens to me as I feel the pack is pulling away, I panic. I basically forget everything I know and my brain goes into just pedal faster and harder! I do not think of changing gears and I can tell I am loosing my breath and I have lost control as much physically but mentally also. What do you guys do when you see the pack pulling away other than wave good bye like I do and tell them I am cutting through the woods and meet you on the the West End!

I would usually shoot these emails to Dave but figure maybe we can get onto something else...

-js
 
For the power graph itself, please turn on 30s averaging, put a dashed line at your FTP, and repost.
 
I am sorry but can you give me instructions on how to do that. I am looking but can not figure it out for the life of me.

frenchyge said:
For the power graph itself, please turn on 30s averaging, put a dashed line at your FTP, and repost.
 
jsirabella said:
What do you guys do when you see the pack pulling away other than wave good bye like I do and tell them I am cutting through the woods and meet you on the the West End!

-js
1. Don't panic. Find the closest wheel, sprint to get back on (within a foot) and stay out of the wind the best you can.

2. Slide forward in the saddle, get low and most importantly for me knock it up a gear - personally I found I couldn't pedal fast (ie over 92 to 95rpm) when riding with my nose in the wind at over 25mph. That was years ago - now make that 22 to 23 mph. Find what works best for you and your current state of fitness. I'm not Lance, I never will be but then again I have no need to be overly concerned with muscle fatigue from using slightly too big a gear - I'll probably never race more than twice in a week and never 21 days pretty much straight within a month.

3. Don't cheat and take shortcuts. :p
 
jsirabella said:
I always find CP one of the most frutsrating things to ride because of the course layout. It is just a constant up and down scenario where guys are either banging away at 300 or higher watts or what feels like none at all. I have attached all my charts so it may make more sense. Zoli tells me that the CT is all well and good but some people are good at short high intensity intervals but not at longer contstant power while others are the opposite. You have to find your speciality and pick races that are better suited for you.

Next the same thing always happens to me as I feel the pack is pulling away, I panic. I basically forget everything I know and my brain goes into just pedal faster and harder! I do not think of changing gears and I can tell I am loosing my breath and I have lost control as much physically but mentally also. What do you guys do when you see the pack pulling away other than wave good bye like I do and tell them I am cutting through the woods and meet you on the the West End!

-js
Don't get all transparent on us with ride files. Pretty soon, you are going to start a trend! We have a similar ride in Philly called the drives, laps around the River drives, which I stopped riding many years ago for many of the same reasons. (Most of all I stopped these weeknight hammerfests when I started working in the burbs, had young kids, and got tired of my wife *****ing about coming home late, but allow me some internet license and revisionist history, the story is better somehow if I succumbed to principle rather than just being henpecked) When is a group training ride neither a group nor good training? When it really is just a race, which is what these fast club rides really are.

Generally, I prefer small groups of like ability riders with a specific training plan. But, I think that a weekly ride like what you are doing is great to develop what you don't get on a trainer and that is unpredictability and variability. Basically, it's pirate rules, hang on or get dropped, and after a few weeks of this ride, you will get dropped less and less. You will know when the group is going to lay it down, and have the confidence that eventually, the pace will slow a bit and you can get back below the threshold.

Some folks are better and just shrewder on group rides. If I rode with my brother, two on two, I could always make him hurt and even drop him. But on a group ride, my bro was always exactly in the right position when the pack turned it on and I would invariably get dropped or work so hard to catch the pack that I had nothing left at the end. Eventually, I started watching who was always in the breakout pack and made sure that I was always very close to one of those riders. Then, when they go, you need to go. Also, notice those guys are not the folks taking long hard pulls when the pack is all together. My bro always took just only as many brief pulls as he needed to keep others from *****ing. I would play hero and hang out there too long. Also, gaps hurt, stay on the faster riders wheel rather than closing gaps pulling the slower riders

We are also in our 40s and like it or not, that high end power fades much quicker. You have very few high energy matches, make sure that you save them for when they need them. I will download CP and hopefully have some files to share soon. This thread mght not be as inspiring, but at least it will be real.
 
kopride said:
Don't get all transparent on us with ride files. Pretty soon, you are going to start a trend!
It's going to be a liberal yuppiefest of file posting and blogs soon, otherwise noone will believe you that you did 4x20 or rode 50 miles in training at 23mph... :p
 
swampy1970 said:
It's going to be a liberal yuppiefest of file posting and blogs soon, otherwise noone will believe you that you did 4x20 or rode 50 miles in training at 23mph... :p[/QUOTE

No, scouts honor still applies until the story gets ridiculous. There are some 50 mile hill loops around SE PA, that I would want to see your ride file if you were claiming a 23 mph average. In South Jersey, 23 mph would be pretty pedestrian unless you were riding into the wind both ways. Tell me you averaged 400 Watts for your 23 mph (2 plus hour ride), and a ride file might be nice, but more importantly, share your ride files so we coudl figure out how you got to that level.

"liberal yuppiefest" Is that like a NYC Obama rally? And would those attending a "liberal Yuppiefest" qualify as "Real Americans" according to the Palin definition. And yes, after two years of a "faith-based" forum like It's Killing me, I am proud to be posting on the new "reality based" thread "Back to Cycling."
 
kopride said:
We are also in our 40s and like it or not, that high end power fades much quicker. You have very few high energy matches, make sure that you save them for when they need them. I will download CP and hopefully have some files to share soon. This thread might not be as inspiring, but at least it will be real.
Actually the being dropped thing does not bother me as much as I have to see Zoli the next morning and get the "what happen?" (with hungarian accent). He is the guy who uses the room you did the test on. My age does not help as he says he is 40 but his girlfriend says he is 43 like me. The lame excuses do not work with him...as he sees these files and says there is no reason you should not be able to hang on with us. The accent makes you feel like you are in a Russian prison movie..."you capitalist pig, you will pedal harder, harder or you will die"

I may be calling in sick more often now...

-js
 
jsirabella said:
you capitalist pig, you will pedal harder, harder or you will die"

-js
Hahaha

Kopride. Just kinda wondering how with an FTP of less that 300watts, you find a 2+ hour ride at 23mph on a road bike pretty pedestrian, even on a flat windless course... cause I know from training on my time trial bike when I was fit (ave. 340 watts for an hour) 24 mph for 2 hours wasn't exactly a walk in the park and that was when I could complete a 50 mile TT in around 1hr 56.
 
jsirabella said:
I am sorry but can you give me instructions on how to do that. I am looking but can not figure it out for the life of me.
Sorry to presume. The averaging setting is the right-hand tool on the toolbar that looks like numbers with up/down arrows. Dial that up to 30 seconds to see what the ride looked like "metabolically."

For a line at a certain power, there are 2 ways: 1) place the cursor on the numbers of the yellow power axis and left-drag into the black field, hold the button and drag up/down to the desired power (power number displayed on bar at bottom left of window), or 2) double-click on power axis to open properties window, then in the lower section (grid lines) click the top button to add a new line. In the window that pops up, type in the desired power for the line (ie, your FTP) and hit ok. You can add multiple lines if desired (one at FTP and another at pVO2max, for instance). Lines can be added from any axis (HR, speed, power, etc.).

Between the averaging and the FTP line, you will break the ride into periods of metabolic over-exertion and recovery. Maybe there's a clue there into why you're having difficulty, besides simply needing more of everything. :)
 
kopride said:
But, I think that a weekly ride like what you are doing is great to develop what you don't get on a trainer and that is unpredictability and variability.
Absolutely, yes.

You do SST training right, JS? There are many ways to get that SST time and hard groups rides can be part of that. Here are some words from the guy who coined the term "sweet-spot training", Frank Overton. In particular, I would point you to examples 2 and 4.

kopride said:
Basically, it's pirate rules, hang on or get dropped, and after a few weeks of this ride, you will get dropped less and less. You will know when the group is going to lay it down, and have the confidence that eventually, the pace will slow a bit and you can get back below the threshold.
When I was just getting going in this stuff, I would go to a certain Tuesday night ride and get my ass handed to me, week after week. I was riding in a not totally familiar area for me. I would be dropped and for the first few times, I had to figure out how to get back to my car. As I progressed, the incentive to hang on and dig deep was so that I wouldn't have to figure out how to get back to my car. Eventually, I could finish the whole thing, regardless of who showed up to the ride.

That's one way that a lot of people got better - getting their ass handed to them and keep trying. It isn't always true in life but in this case, what doesn't kill you does make you stronger.

I agree with KO's words about smart placement and being mindful of what is going on.
 
swampy1970 said:
Hahaha

Kopride. Just kinda wondering how with an FTP of less that 300watts, you find a 2+ hour ride at 23mph on a road bike pretty pedestrian, even on a flat windless course... cause I know from training on my time trial bike when I was fit (ave. 340 watts for an hour) 24 mph for 2 hours wasn't exactly a walk in the park and that was when I could complete a 50 mile TT in around 1hr 56.
I wouldn't think of any solo ride at 23 mph to be pedestrian for me. I was thinking of some of the group training rides (like Beacon Sat morning) that ride in South Jersey average 23+ mph, and the Drives rides in CC Philly I was referencing averages about the same. I have averaged pretty close to 23 mph on an MS ride down the shore, again riding with a pretty strong group, but not killing myself. These rides are pretty darn flat and like the CP ride that JS is referencing, the pace is fast. In SE PA, outside the City proper, averaging 18-20 is very respectable for a hard training ride which is usually classified as an "A" ride. There are some hill rides where a 17 mph average would be downright blistering.

I am just saying, based upon experience, if someone told me that they ride with their local group and it averages 23 plus, I wouldn't discount it
 
Thanks for the know how...

I did as you instructed and attached the file. It makes it alot easier to read the graph but not sure what more it tells you. You will be better suited to see that but the one thing I did see was that I was very little time at FTP but instead either quite above or nothing at all...

I estimate my FTP at 260..I am fairly certain based upon my ride data...

-js
 
Steve_B said:
You do SST training right, JS?
Good question. I never really thought about it as I assume I was doing the right thing. It does bring up other issues I would like to hear people's thoughts on but first the issue at hand. For me SST training were pretty much 20 minute or high intervals at 85% - 90% of my FTP. I figure my FTP is about a 260. On weekdays I would try and fit in 2-3 with small breaks of 5-10 minutes and a warm up if 30 minutes. For the weekends I can ride for 2-4 hours so I would try to do the same thing just more intervals maybe 4 or higher and I would have longer breaks of 10 minutes min and a longer warmup and may thow in an hour at 220 or 230 during the session.

The other thing I started last week was to mix in micro intervals so I would say for 20 minutes I would do 2 mins at 270, 1 min at 180, 2 min at 230 and repeat for four times to give me 20 minutes of riding. I felt this matched better of what I was feeling outdoors. Thoughts, SST?

Steve_B said:
That's one way that a lot of people got better - getting their ass handed to them and keep trying. It isn't always true in life but in this case, what doesn't kill you does make you stronger.
I kind of had the feeling this was the case. As long as I do not stop because of being embarrassed than I will eventually get better or if anything they will just have an off night. My only issue is now I feel I have to kind of make my schedule and training around the ride which brings up the next issue which I feel is big for me.

Kind of like KO and maybe a few others on these boards, I always feel a bit beat. I do not remember the last time I really felt fresh! I am kind of a training-holic and I seem to train so I can train more. I never know when to say stop and recover. I always feel when I wake up in the morning, well I can always put in a couple hours and do some 220 watt intervals.

Is this helping or hurting me? When is sore, too sore? Is there some indication in the software or something else I should be looking at. Yes I understand TSB but I have as you can see had a few times of TSS of 100 for periods and a day off and suddenly my TSB drops like an anchor. But I really do not think I am that much better.

I look at Zoli the Hungarian rider here and he is either riding hard in the park or doing hours on the CT at like 100 - 150 at times. He takes lots of recovery. And with these weekly rides I feel I have to take lots of recovery just to prep for the next one if I want to hang with the crew for sometime.

Just want to know how you other folks handle the workload issue...

-js
 
jsirabella said:
Kind of like KO and maybe a few others on these boards, I always feel a bit beat. I do not remember the last time I really felt fresh! I am kind of a training-holic and I seem to train so I can train more. I never know when to say stop and recover. I always feel when I wake up in the morning, well I can always put in a couple hours and do some 220 watt intervals.

Just want to know how you other folks handle the workload issue...

-js
The world series has pushed me into a little self inflicted fatigue. Despite the lack of sleep, I had a good weekend and will download the files ASAP. On Sat, I squeezed in my usual 2 x 20s and averaged about 251. Sunday, in anticipation for doing another one hour TT to reset FTP, I did two hard 20 min intervals at threshold plus as part of a 2 hour loop. First one averaged 294 and the second was only 281. The dropoff was some effort related but was also affected by the back end of the course where there are some downhill stretches where I find it hard to keep the watts up with my compact crankset. Also, stop signs, lights, and more traffic in mid afternoon than my usual morning rides where there are fewer stops (World Series in Philly kept me up until 2:00 am. so I got a late start) It will be interesting to see how Cycling Peaks calculates NP on the second interval since there are also some smaller steeper uphills and then pushing hard from a dead stop.

My legs are hurting after this weekend but I am hoping that my new FTP will be closer to that first interval. If I can find a good Saturday to do a test in the next couple of weeks, I will give it a shot. Otherwise, I wll start running into the holidays and then cold weather, when my motivation wil drop way off.

As for your CP rides, basically, you are racing once a week. I am sure the guys who are racing can give you better insight how to balance the fatigue. We also burn some matches in the weight room so keep an eye on that element as well.
 
jsirabella said:
Kind of like KO and maybe a few others on these boards, I always feel a bit beat. I do not remember the last time I really felt fresh! I am kind of a training-holic and I seem to train so I can train more. I never know when to say stop and recover. I always feel when I wake up in the morning, well I can always put in a couple hours and do some 220 watt intervals.

Is this helping or hurting me? When is sore, too sore? Is there some indication in the software or something else I should be looking at. Yes I understand TSB but I have as you can see had a few times of TSS of 100 for periods and a day off and suddenly my TSB drops like an anchor. But I really do not think I am that much better.


js
That's the $6,000,000 question... when is too much actually too much. That's something that only you can really answer with trial and error but I'd hazzard a guess that if you're always sore then you're maybe not giving yourself enough time between hard sessions. Recovery is as important as the training itself.
 
jsirabella said:
The other thing I started last week was to mix in micro intervals so I would say for 20 minutes I would do 2 mins at 270, 1 min at 180, 2 min at 230 and repeat for four times to give me 20 minutes of riding. I felt this matched better of what I was feeling outdoors. Thoughts, SST?
Sure. You could get that on the road too so it's not unreasonable. If the NP works out to something in that range, I'd say you're golden. That sort of stuff is good for variety too.


jsirabella said:
Kind of like KO and maybe a few others on these boards, I always feel a bit beat. I do not remember the last time I really felt fresh!
Like KO said, resistance training will not help.Most people ride like **** and are sore when they are doing big-time resistance training (moving big-time weights/low-repitition stuff). It takes a while (6 weeks?) after people stop before they ride better. However, if you are not stopping and plan on lifting all the time, then that isn't applicable.

I also find that a lot of SST piled onto itself (e.g., low TSB for weeks on end) just makes me feel awful. You will ride poorly and not feel fresh until you lighten up for a couple weeks and let the TSB come up for some air. Being "down there" is to some extent necesary, depending upon what you are trying to do, but it doesn't mean you have to live there forever.

Your buddy Zoltan has been riding for years (which I think matters a little too as that means he knows how to cope with it) and, as you said, takes a lot of recovery. (HINT, HINT.) You don't have to be in the pain cave everyday to progress. In fact, you will progress better if you let your body heal every so often.
 
I posted this in Tyson's thread. But here are my latest 2 x 20s that I did at close to threshold. I figured I would put the pressure on you (JS) to see which one of us hits a 300 FTP for an hour first. Notice my speed stayed the same despite the drop off in power. The second leg of my course is a bit more downhill and I am thinking that I was unable to keep the watts up during those downhill sections. Also, my intervals on the PT head unit stated average watts of 294 and 281. I wonder why CP calculates them differently. One thing I like about the CP software is that it seems to record my intervals directly off the unit. Then again, I tend to merge the ride files on power agent so it might be the program works differently. Let's stop testing Tyson's wacky explanations and get back to riding.

I just downloaded cycling peaks so I figured I better put up (post data) myself since I have been calling out Tyson. Below find the first of 2 x 20s I did this Sunday. I usually go by av power on the power agent software, but CP says my NP was 300 on the first one and 288 on the second. I took a 5 minute rest between. I am going to wait a week or two before I do a one hour test, but I am hoping that my next post in the FTP poll will be 300. I am still trying to figure out the CP software and have not transferred my old Power Agent files.

Power-Tap #26:
Duration: 20:03

Work: 352 kJ

TSS: 37.6 (intensity factor 1.061)

Norm Power: 300

VI: 1.03

Pw:HR: n/a

Pa:HR: n/a

Distance: 6.281 mi

Min Max Avg

Power: 0 641 292 watts

Cadence: 32 146 81 rpm

Speed: 2.9 34.6 18.8 mph

Pace 1:44 20:59 3:12 min/mi

Hub Torque: 0 370 113 lb-in

Crank Torque: 0 807 310 lb-in

Power-Tap #28:

Duration: 20:05

Work: 334 kJ

TSS: 34.6 (intensity factor 1.017)

Norm Power: 288

VI: 1.04

Pw:HR: n/a

Pa:HR: n/a

Distance: 6.307 mi

Min Max Avg

Power: 0 550 278 watts

Cadence: 30 141 72 rpm

Speed: 4.6 37 18.8 mph

Pace 1:37 13:03 3:11 min/mi

Hub Torque: 0 405 117 lb-in

Crank Torque: 0 915 345 lb-in

 
Ok...I am actually rethinking alot of my training lately. Had a talk with Zoli this morning. I am going to start to do some periodization (sp?). I was spending way too much time in the "pain cave" and wondering why am I not getting better results.

I was not taking recovery seriously and this morning I started with a 3 hour ride at 180 watts. I always read posts and always see these high numbers but never see all the days in between, only the highs. I think now I may be able to fill in that missing link.

I have some renewed energy and will start to take a bit from everything I have learned in the last two years and combine...yes that means even endurance rides and oh my god looking at my HRM data. I really feel now I have a better grasp.

I am up for the challenge and feel maybe on one of those CP rides I may be able to pull it off or on the CT. In anycase I have the patience and hopefully a bit more of the know how....it just will probably not be very exciting or very much info as rapid as some other threads were...:D

-js




kopride said:
I posted this in Tyson's thread. But here are my latest 2 x 20s that I did at close to threshold. I figured I would put the pressure on you (JS) to see which one of us hits a 300 FTP for an hour first. Notice my speed stayed the same despite the drop off in power. The second leg of my course is a bit more downhill and I am thinking that I was unable to keep the watts up during those downhill sections. Also, my intervals on the PT head unit stated average watts of 294 and 281. I wonder why CP calculates them differently. One thing I like about the CP software is that it seems to record my intervals directly off the unit. Then again, I tend to merge the ride files on power agent so it might be the program works differently. Let's stop testing Tyson's wacky explanations and get back to riding.

I just downloaded cycling peaks so I figured I better put up (post data) myself since I have been calling out Tyson. Below find the first of 2 x 20s I did this Sunday. I usually go by av power on the power agent software, but CP says my NP was 300 on the first one and 288 on the second. I took a 5 minute rest between. I am going to wait a week or two before I do a one hour test, but I am hoping that my next post in the FTP poll will be 300. I am still trying to figure out the CP software and have not transferred my old Power Agent files.

Power-Tap #26:
Duration: 20:03

Work: 352 kJ

TSS: 37.6 (intensity factor 1.061)

Norm Power: 300

VI: 1.03

Pw:HR: n/a

Pa:HR: n/a

Distance: 6.281 mi

Min Max Avg

Power: 0 641 292 watts

Cadence: 32 146 81 rpm

Speed: 2.9 34.6 18.8 mph

Pace 1:44 20:59 3:12 min/mi

Hub Torque: 0 370 113 lb-in

Crank Torque: 0 807 310 lb-in

Power-Tap #28:

Duration: 20:05

Work: 334 kJ

TSS: 34.6 (intensity factor 1.017)

Norm Power: 288

VI: 1.04

Pw:HR: n/a

Pa:HR: n/a

Distance: 6.307 mi

Min Max Avg

Power: 0 550 278 watts

Cadence: 30 141 72 rpm

Speed: 4.6 37 18.8 mph

Pace 1:37 13:03 3:11 min/mi

Hub Torque: 0 405 117 lb-in

Crank Torque: 0 915 345 lb-in

 
jsirabella said:
....it just will probably not be very exciting or very much info as rapid as some other threads were...:D

-js
Reality is sometimes not as "exciting or rapid" but it is helpful to measure yourself against someone you have some faith is actually doing the do. I was getting frustrated in my "lack of progress" compared to Tyson, w/o seeing that in real terms, the increases I have been seeing have been pretty remarkable. My career is also not as interesting as LA Law or Boston Legal either, but it is more fulfilling than most. We may not go from the low 100s to the high 300s in a couple of years riding gym ergos, but guys in their mid-40s with kids and careers hitting a FTP in the high 200s is not a shabby accomplishment. I think my first 1 hour test 18 months ago was about a 240 and I thought I was pretty fit at the time. I don't know if I am really at 300 for an hour yet, but I am getting pretty close. :cool: