New Thread...Back to Cycling?? Maybe?



doctorSpoc

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jsirabella said:
Ok...I am actually rethinking alot of my training lately. Had a talk with Zoli this morning. I am going to start to do some periodization (sp?). I was spending way too much time in the "pain cave" and wondering why am I not getting better results.

I was not taking recovery seriously and this morning I started with a 3 hour ride at 180 watts. I always read posts and always see these high numbers but never see all the days in between, only the highs. I think now I may be able to fill in that missing link.

I have some renewed energy and will start to take a bit from everything I have learned in the last two years and combine...yes that means even endurance rides and oh my god looking at my HRM data. I really feel now I have a better grasp.

I am up for the challenge and feel maybe on one of those CP rides I may be able to pull it off or on the CT. In anycase I have the patience and hopefully a bit more of the know how....it just will probably not be very exciting or very much info as rapid as some other threads were...:D

-js

just to let you know... 3hr of zone 2 is NOT a recovery ride

but what's missing from you post is... what are your goals? what is "getting better" for you... people just get on their bikes and thrash away thinking they will "get better" without even think about what it is they want to achieve... first you figure out where you want to go and then you figure out what is the best, shortest path there.
 

jsirabella

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That is a great question and when I saw it on my phone it got me to think. Like KO brought up I need to think about my personal and business life and somehow make them all coordinate. If I am going to make a set of goal I also want them to be attainable and not pie in the sky.

Truth be told, cycling kind of came to me than me going to cycling. I only started with cycling because I want to get in some cardio while I was doing my workouts and get to work for free. Than I set the goal of riding the bike from NYC to Boston. Since accomplishing that it seems to just keep getting bigger and bigger part of my life. Till eventually it became a goal of doing some races and performing well where I finish with the pack and Dave was nice enough to give me some advice.

I still actually find it tough to set as honestly doing 300 watts in and of itself means nothing to me if I can not hang with the crew in CP. In the same way deadlifting > 300 lbs means nothing to me if I can not see my abs and look good so lets set goals that really matter to me.

1. Be able to do a night ride in CP and finish with the pack.

2. Be able to do atleast enough either the PP or CP races and atleast one bigger road race that will get me to Cat 4. And with these races finish with the pack.

1 + 2a. Have a 300 watt FTP as long as it means that I can do goals 1 and 2.

3. Be able to see my abs and other muscular definition.

3a. Get my body fat % below 10% as long as that means I can see my abs and be able to do a three plate deadlift for 3 reps or more.

I will give up on any ideas of mass as I weigh 175 lbs now and to get to see my abs will require me to loose a bit of weight. I figure year after year from here if I can continue to actually put on 5-10lbs of weight but keep the same definition and body fat than that is fine.

On other notes Zoltan just keeps pushing me towards CX but the problem is the races are not local at all and it seems to upset the wife as I have fallen already more than a few times. But after doing the CX sessions with him it may be as good as doing a weight lifting session so the training schedules with him may pay off in more than just bike handling as it is totally anabolic but not sure if I will ever be able to do a race.

Last on personal goal of finishing my own screenplay and producing it while keeping the business and personal life going. I opened a store near the fulfillment center in NJ and half will be a sound stage so I can bring my CT there and get in quite a bit of training going also besides the movie stuff.

Well what do you think about my goals? Can they all be obtained, ofcourse the personal one is not to figure in as in the end what matters is how many hours I can put into it. Truth be told I can actually put in quite a bit as I can make my own rules in the office but lets say closer to 2-3 hours a day on weekdays and 3-5 hours on weekends to play it safe.

Also to make this wirk with KO and the transparency issue going I will take a picture of the before picture and post soon enough and ofcourse the CP file must be posted if I get to 300 watts. The races can only be shown if I finish in top positions and for the three plate deadlift I will try and video/picture it but my gym actually does not like video in the gym.

So do you think I have a better chance of making these goals than McCain and Palin have a chance of winning?

-js

btw, thanks doc have not thought in these terms in along time...


















doctorSpoc said:
just to let you know... 3hr of zone 2 is NOT a recovery ride

but what's missing from you post is... what are your goals? what is "getting better" for you... people just get on their bikes and thrash away thinking they will "get better" without even think about what it is they want to achieve... first you figure out where you want to go and then you figure out what is the best, shortest path there.
 

swampy1970

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2008
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jsirabella said:
That is a great question and when I saw it on my phone it got me to think. Like KO brought up I need to think about my personal and business life and somehow make them all coordinate. If I am going to make a set of goal I also want them to be attainable and not pie in the sky.

Truth be told, cycling kind of came to me than me going to cycling. I only started with cycling because I want to get in some cardio while I was doing my workouts and get to work for free. Than I set the goal of riding the bike from NYC to Boston. Since accomplishing that it seems to just keep getting bigger and bigger part of my life. Till eventually it became a goal of doing some races and performing well where I finish with the pack and Dave was nice enough to give me some advice.

I still actually find it tough to set as honestly doing 300 watts in and of itself means nothing to me if I can not hang with the crew in CP. In the same way deadlifting > 300 lbs means nothing to me if I can not see my abs and look good so lets set goals that really matter to me.

1. Be able to do a night ride in CP and finish with the pack.

2. Be able to do atleast enough either the PP or CP races and atleast one bigger road race that will get me to Cat 4. And with these races finish with the pack.

1 + 2a. Have a 300 watt FTP as long as it means that I can do goals 1 and 2.

3. Be able to see my abs and other muscular definition.

3a. Get my body fat % below 10% as long as that means I can see my abs and be able to do a three plate deadlift for 3 reps or more.

I will give up on any ideas of mass as I weigh 175 lbs now and to get to see my abs will require me to loose a bit of weight. I figure year after year from here if I can continue to actually put on 5-10lbs of weight but keep the same definition and body fat than that is fine.

On other notes Zoltan just keeps pushing me towards CX but the problem is the races are not local at all and it seems to upset the wife as I have fallen already more than a few times. But after doing the CX sessions with him it may be as good as doing a weight lifting session so the training schedules with him may pay off in more than just bike handling as it is totally anabolic but not sure if I will ever be able to do a race.

Last on personal goal of finishing my own screenplay and producing it while keeping the business and personal life going. I opened a store near the fulfillment center in NJ and half will be a sound stage so I can bring my CT there and get in quite a bit of training going also besides the movie stuff.

Well what do you think about my goals? Can they all be obtained, ofcourse the personal one is not to figure in as in the end what matters is how many hours I can put into it. Truth be told I can actually put in quite a bit as I can make my own rules in the office but lets say closer to 2-3 hours a day on weekdays and 3-5 hours on weekends to play it safe.

Also to make this wirk with KO and the transparency issue going I will take a picture of the before picture and post soon enough and ofcourse the CP file must be posted if I get to 300 watts. The races can only be shown if I finish in top positions and for the three plate deadlift I will try and video/picture it but my gym actually does not like video in the gym.

So do you think I have a better chance of making these goals than McCain and Palin have a chance of winning?

-js

btw, thanks doc have not thought in these terms in along time...
Well I'd give you as much chance as Obama's relavitives that are in the country illegally staying here another four years despite being order to leave four years ago.

A higher FTP is nice to have but it's often those pesky 400+ watt digs that get people in trouble. FTP may be the "be all and end all" in long distance timetrials but road racing isn't that simple.
 

doctorSpoc

Member
Nov 18, 2005
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jsirabella said:
That is a great question and when I saw it on my phone it got me to think. Like KO brought up I need to think about my personal and business life and somehow make them all coordinate. If I am going to make a set of goal I also want them to be attainable and not pie in the sky.

Truth be told, cycling kind of came to me than me going to cycling. I only started with cycling because I want to get in some cardio while I was doing my workouts and get to work for free. Than I set the goal of riding the bike from NYC to Boston. Since accomplishing that it seems to just keep getting bigger and bigger part of my life. Till eventually it became a goal of doing some races and performing well where I finish with the pack and Dave was nice enough to give me some advice.

I still actually find it tough to set as honestly doing 300 watts in and of itself means nothing to me if I can not hang with the crew in CP. In the same way deadlifting > 300 lbs means nothing to me if I can not see my abs and look good so lets set goals that really matter to me.

1. Be able to do a night ride in CP and finish with the pack.

2. Be able to do atleast enough either the PP or CP races and atleast one bigger road race that will get me to Cat 4. And with these races finish with the pack.

1 + 2a. Have a 300 watt FTP as long as it means that I can do goals 1 and 2.

3. Be able to see my abs and other muscular definition.

3a. Get my body fat % below 10% as long as that means I can see my abs and be able to do a three plate deadlift for 3 reps or more.

I will give up on any ideas of mass as I weigh 175 lbs now and to get to see my abs will require me to loose a bit of weight. I figure year after year from here if I can continue to actually put on 5-10lbs of weight but keep the same definition and body fat than that is fine.

On other notes Zoltan just keeps pushing me towards CX but the problem is the races are not local at all and it seems to upset the wife as I have fallen already more than a few times. But after doing the CX sessions with him it may be as good as doing a weight lifting session so the training schedules with him may pay off in more than just bike handling as it is totally anabolic but not sure if I will ever be able to do a race.

Last on personal goal of finishing my own screenplay and producing it while keeping the business and personal life going. I opened a store near the fulfillment center in NJ and half will be a sound stage so I can bring my CT there and get in quite a bit of training going also besides the movie stuff.

Well what do you think about my goals? Can they all be obtained, ofcourse the personal one is not to figure in as in the end what matters is how many hours I can put into it. Truth be told I can actually put in quite a bit as I can make my own rules in the office but lets say closer to 2-3 hours a day on weekdays and 3-5 hours on weekends to play it safe.

Also to make this wirk with KO and the transparency issue going I will take a picture of the before picture and post soon enough and ofcourse the CP file must be posted if I get to 300 watts. The races can only be shown if I finish in top positions and for the three plate deadlift I will try and video/picture it but my gym actually does not like video in the gym.

So do you think I have a better chance of making these goals than McCain and Palin have a chance of winning?

-js

btw, thanks doc have not thought in these terms in along time...

you have tonnes of time to attain those goals... 10-15hr per week should be enough...

more questions... how tall are you? are you muscular or could you lose a few? i ask this because i'll be honest, your FTP is pretty low for your weight...

actually i never use FTP, i find it kind of an inconvenient measurement... i like to use 20min power...

so you can go at it from two directions... move your 20min power up or move your weight down... or some combination of the two... don't know which one or if both are possible... i'd say about 4W/kg is about what you want to achieve... at your present weight that means you need about a 315W 20min power to achieve your goals... 300W for 20min is basically the minimum you need to achieve your goals. how much weight do you think you can lose... the more you lose the less you need to do in the FTP department... endurance is the main building block of a cyclist... 2a is actually necessary in order to achieve 1 and 2.

also... what is your 5s power, 1min power and 5min power?
 

jsirabella

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swampy1970 said:
it's often those pesky 400+ watt digs that get people in trouble. FTP may be the "be all and end all" in long distance timetrials but road racing isn't that simple.
Based upon my experience in CP I understand what you mean...unless you have the complete arsenal of power you can definitely fall off from the pack fairly quick.
 

jsirabella

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Here are some answers to your questions:

1) I am 67 inches tall. I will post my picture soon enough for the ab issue and than maybe you can see if I am muscular or not. I would say I am closer to muscular than not muscular. The scale says I am at about 15% body fat and while not exact I can live with it. Again the nuber means nothing if I can not see my abs anyway.

2) My ftp is 260 as I know I have done it for one hour. If you want to go by 20 minute power than I have done 280.

3) I can definitely loose some weight. While in no way really need it can definitely not hurt and achieve the abs goal. I was told by someone else on this board that 4 watts/kg should be my goal. So that does seem to be the magic number.

4) As far as the 5s, 1 min and 5 min power? I never really focused on any of these except I have done some 5 minute intervals, everything for me was always 10 minutes or higher. The highest I remember doing on my five minute power was 300 watts. As for my 5s and 1 min my highest for the last year was 853 watts for 5s and my highest for 1 min was 490 watts.

Today was kind of interesting as it was the first time in a long time I just was tired. Usually I never felt tired or sore from a tough week instead I would feel aches and pains. It is actually a bit better feeling actually as you feel you will be able to recover better. Yesterday I did 1 x 60 = 180, 1 x 60 = 225, 1 x 30 = 245. Today I only did 1 x 90 = 180. I guess how often should you do intervals and how much TSS per week is enough and how much is too much.

If you want to keep pushing for new highs you will have to have lots of time in low watts spins and than as soon as you feel well than push it for the higher numbers. I can not see how for me where I was always pushing myself in the 230-260 zone all the time that I would ever be able to do a new high. I was thinking I need to spin more in my comfort zone which for me is 180 watts...feel I can almost stay there all day.

-js


doctorSpoc said:
you have tonnes of time to attain those goals... 10-15hr per week should be enough...

more questions... how tall are you? are you muscular or could you lose a few? i ask this because i'll be honest, your FTP is pretty low for your weight...

actually i never use FTP, i find it kind of an inconvenient measurement... i like to use 20min power...

so you can go at it from two directions... move your 20min power up or move your weight down... or some combination of the two... don't know which one or if both are possible... i'd say about 4W/kg is about what you want to achieve... at your present weight that means you need about a 315W 20min power to achieve your goals... 300W for 20min is basically the minimum you need to achieve your goals. how much weight do you think you can lose... the more you lose the less you need to do in the FTP department... endurance is the main building block of a cyclist... 2a is actually necessary in order to achieve 1 and 2.

also... what is your 5s power, 1min power and 5min power?
 

swampy1970

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2008
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jsirabella said:
I will give up on any ideas of mass as I weigh 175 lbs now and to get to see my abs will require me to loose a bit of weight. I figure year after year from here if I can continue to actually put on 5-10lbs of weight but keep the same definition and body fat than that is fine.
I find this quite odd. I personally find that losing weight is very easy but it's not something that can be done easily when training hard. If you back off the intensity and just do 60 to 90 minute rides and cut back on the onride carbo-drinks and just follow a sensible diet then there's nothing that difficult about losing weight.

Loss of body fat as several distinct advantages apart from the obvious power to weight. Less fat means better heat loss and better aerodynamics partly due to less mass but also because you can feasibly get lower due to less gut squish... It also makes things a little easier on components like bars, saddles and rims...

There's also less stuff inside you to hinder other stuff like breathing - have a good amount of fat squishing up against your diaphram can't be a good thing can it?

I'm not sure if I'm the only one too feel this way but I often think that losing a large majority of excess weight is the first thing that one should do if you want to get better on the bike.
 

kopride

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May 17, 2006
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jsirabella said:
1. Be able to do a night ride in CP and finish with the pack.

2. Be able to do atleast enough either the PP or CP races and atleast one bigger road race that will get me to Cat 4. And with these races finish with the pack.

1 + 2a. Have a 300 watt FTP as long as it means that I can do goals 1 and 2.

3. Be able to see my abs and other muscular definition.

3a. Get my body fat % below 10% as long as that means I can see my abs and be able to do a three plate deadlift for 3 reps or more.


Last on personal goal of finishing my own screenplay and producing it while keeping the business and personal life going. I opened a store near the fulfillment center in NJ and half will be a sound stage so I can bring my CT there and get in quite a bit of training going also besides the movie stuff.


Also to make this wirk with KO and the transparency issue going I will take a picture of the before picture and post soon enough and ofcourse the CP file must be posted if I get to 300 watts. The races can only be shown if I finish in top positions and for the three plate deadlift I will try and video/picture it but my gym actually does not like video in the gym.
I would focus on the CP goal because I think it will lead to the race goals much quicker. In big urban areas with lots of young racers, these group rides, particularly in off season, are basically at near race pace, which will be race pace for you. There is some truth to the old adage, if you want to get faster, ride with faster guys. There is a point where this curve starts bending back down for more elite guys, and they start to plateau or lose ground, but for weekend warriors like us, nothing beats fast group rides as an intro to racing. In college and law school, it was basically my program and I made a lot of progress.

Next CP ride, hang onto Zoli or another ride leader's wheel and hang on for dear life. It's that simple. Take minimal pulls at the front, and just hang on. After a few weeks, you will be more comfortable being in the pack, and can make decisions about whether you truly want to race Cat 4 or 5. I find close pack riding to be very mentally taxing and have a hard time just relaxing and having fun. I prefer group riding where I have a real good feel of the group and have ridden with them for a while, but racing (and club rides) does involve people doing very spazzy things.

Until you get used to pack riding, you are going to be pretty beat, and need to be realistic about your strenght workouts. I like these brief intense kettlebell workouts which wil do wonders for your core. If I recall, I am a bit taller and have a different body type, but the kettlebells are doing wonders for my abs. You will get functionally very strong. Again, your stenght and cycling goals are a bit mutually exclusive but so are mine so I can't preach.

As for diet, stuff yourself for breakfast. I eat an obscenely large bowl of shredded wheat every morning. I always pack my lunch as well. One sandwich of reasonable size, a fruit, and a bag of carrots. Then for dinner, I eat normally, but we always cook and never eat out or get takeout during the week. Take the time on the weekend to shop and prepare a mid week prep like pasta sauce or a large roast turkey for leftovers. On weekends, I eat like a typical american.
 

doctorSpoc

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Nov 18, 2005
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jsirabella said:
Here are some answers to your questions:

1) I am 67 inches tall. I will post my picture soon enough for the ab issue and than maybe you can see if I am muscular or not. I would say I am closer to muscular than not muscular. The scale says I am at about 15% body fat and while not exact I can live with it. Again the nuber means nothing if I can not see my abs anyway.

2) My ftp is 260 as I know I have done it for one hour. If you want to go by 20 minute power than I have done 280.

3) I can definitely loose some weight. While in no way really need it can definitely not hurt and achieve the abs goal. I was told by someone else on this board that 4 watts/kg should be my goal. So that does seem to be the magic number.

4) As far as the 5s, 1 min and 5 min power? I never really focused on any of these except I have done some 5 minute intervals, everything for me was always 10 minutes or higher. The highest I remember doing on my five minute power was 300 watts. As for my 5s and 1 min my highest for the last year was 853 watts for 5s and my highest for 1 min was 490 watts.

Today was kind of interesting as it was the first time in a long time I just was tired. Usually I never felt tired or sore from a tough week instead I would feel aches and pains. It is actually a bit better feeling actually as you feel you will be able to recover better. Yesterday I did 1 x 60 = 180, 1 x 60 = 225, 1 x 30 = 245. Today I only did 1 x 90 = 180. I guess how often should you do intervals and how much TSS per week is enough and how much is too much.

If you want to keep pushing for new highs you will have to have lots of time in low watts spins and than as soon as you feel well than push it for the higher numbers. I can not see how for me where I was always pushing myself in the 230-260 zone all the time that I would ever be able to do a new high. I was thinking I need to spin more in my comfort zone which for me is 180 watts...feel I can almost stay there all day.

-js

you know i think you actually have pretty good numbers for your size, but just not for your weight.. i'm about your size and have similar numbers (my 5s is a bit better... 1150ish but you could likely improve that dramatically with some practice) but in season i weigh around 123-127lbs... when i restarted cycling from a 10 year hiatus i was 155lbs... that 30lbs makes a big difference in climbing especially (is this training race you do flat or is there a hill or a rise?), acceleration and to some degree in aerodynamics (not just less air to push out of the way but in terms of one's tuck and breathing in that tuck).

i'd encourage you to get as light as you are comfortable with, it will make you a better cyclist... and agree with swampy... it's easier to lose it and/or keep it off in the off season than to try to lose it while you are training hard and building... and it just a lot easier to forgo 1000 calories by not eating something than to burn 1000 calories... and it's a lot easier and less dangerous to do that when you aren't training hard than it is when you are.

another thing i'd encourage you to do is take a break... it's the off season... it actually seems like you are doing too much... too much high intensity and high intensity at volume... what does a typical week look like for you? total hrs + workout details.

basically how i look at the season is like this... off season and spring i concentrate almost completely on building FTP and endurance... as the season approaches i start to work in VO2max and anaerobic capacity... as you have seen from your training races, just having FTP doesn't cut it. you want the highest FTP that you can have but minimally you want an FTP that allows you to hide in a pack and be comfortable... then you want as many and as good cards in your hands as you can... anaerobic capacity, maxing out your VO2max (take approx 4 weeks of VO2max to max it out), and sprinting ability, and tactical sense... something else you'll get to realize is that in mass start bike racing it's not always the most fit guy that wins.. this is a thinking man's sport. cross winds and longer hills do tilt in favour of the guys that can put the power down though.

one of the other posters gave very good advice a good way to cut your teeth on mass start racing is to just follow a guy or guys that you know are going to finish the race... unless they go in a break that is, keep your nose completely out of the wind for now... keep to the top 1/3 of the pack (much easier to ride there than at the back as there are much less deceleration and accelerations) and try to anticipate what is going to happen so again you are accelerating and reacting less.

my advice would be to...

1) start losing as much weight as you are comfortable with right now... 150 lbs might be a good goal... don't kill yourself or anything, just eat when you're actually hungry, stop eating when you're full... can leave what's on your plate for later and eat a good breakfast... adjust your eating for the amount of training you are doing... you may not want to do this but even atrophying muscle mass will likely be advantageous...
2) take a break and recharge your batteries... take about a week right off the bike.. then come back and start working FTP... reduce your volume to 75% to 50% of what you do in the summer.. your CTL is pretty high for this time of the year
3) at christmas take 1 - 2 weeks off (no more than 2 weeks)
4) after christmas start to build FTP 4-6 weeks at a time, building volume week by week and then take a break letting your TSB get to about +10-15 the do it again
5) as race season approaches start to work in VO2max and anaerobic capacity and or training races
6) in corporate sprints into your workouts... you can do a dedicated sprint workout or when you are doing your 180W endurance ride... every so often do 100% for 10-15 second... longer is not better for these intervals... sprints should be done on days when you are fresh as possible (day after a day off) and done with complete recovery between sprints... sprint workout
7) long, low watt spins can also add a lot of TSS to your volume even thought they seem easy... sometimes you need to take time right off of the bike or take a short low watt spin or short high watt spin... you apply training stress, but then allow your body to recover and adapt.. just piling on more and more stress can put you in a funk and your performance starts to plateau or even go down... recovery is just as important as active training... reducing training stress momentarily will give you the physical and mental freshness to go even higher in your next build after recovery...
 

kopride

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doctorSpoc said:
one of the other posters gave very good advice a good way to cut your teeth on mass start racing is to just follow a guy or guys that you know are going to finish the race... unless they go in a break that is, keep your nose completely out of the wind for now... keep to the top 1/3 of the pack (much easier to ride there than at the back as there are much less deceleration and accelerations) and try to anticipate what is going to happen so again you are accelerating and reacting less.

my advice would be to...

1) start losing as much weight as you are comfortable with right now... 150 lbs might be a good goal... don't kill yourself or anything, just eat when you're actually hungry, stop eating when you're full... can leave what's on your plate for later and eat a good breakfast... adjust your eating for the amount of training you are doing... you may not want to do this but even atrophying muscle mass will likely be advantageous...
2) take a break and recharge your batteries... take about a week right off the bike.. then come back and start working FTP... reduce your volume to 75% to 50% of what you do in the summer.. your CTL is pretty high for this time of the year
3) at christmas take 1 - 2 weeks off (no more than 2 weeks)
4) after christmas start to build FTP 4-6 weeks at a time, building volume week by week and then take a break letting your TSB get to about +10-15 the do it again
5) as race season approaches start to work in VO2max and anaerobic capacity and or training races
6) in corporate sprints into your workouts... you can do a dedicated sprint workout or when you are doing your 180W endurance ride... every so often do 100% for 10-15 second... longer is not better for these intervals... sprints should be done on days when you are fresh as possible (day after a day off) and done with complete recovery between sprints... sprint workout
7) long, low watt spins can also add a lot of TSS to your volume even thought they seem easy... sometimes you need to take time right off of the bike or take a short low watt spin or short high watt spin... you apply training stress, but then allow your body to recover and adapt.. just piling on more and more stress can put you in a funk and your performance starts to plateau or even go down... recovery is just as important as active training... reducing training stress momentarily will give you the physical and mental freshness to go even higher in your next build after recovery...
All good advice. But I think the 25 pound weight loss is a pretty lofty one given your resistance training and other goals. Over my very average and pedestrian but long wrestling career, I generally spanned two weight classes, 155 and 167. At 167, I could bench solidly in the 230+ (I still can at 171 or so) and squat big numbers. At 155, after losing about 9 real pounds of lean muscle mass, a 185 bench was a big struggle, and you start to lose strength in a big way. The 164 pound weight class that I wrestled in as an end of year coaching stunt was always great for me. Anything lower and I would have been hurting.

BTW, scale weight is about as meaningful as heart rate monitors. Take a tape measure and take a waist measurment once a week. For most americans, you can lose a lot of inches off the waist, if you just start preparing 80-90% of your meals at home and start the day with a huge breakfast. Stop the big lunches and takeout for dinner and the fat will melt off until you reach your optimum weight. It just takes discipline in shopping, bringing your lunch, and thawing something out every day for dinner. I don't think that you will get anywhere near 155, but you will lose any doughiness you feel around the middle, and get down to a weight where you will feel comfortable on a bike but still have strength during your weight workouts. The sprints, on the bike and running, are also great for building lean strength. Sprinters are the only pro cyclists that have remotely normal athletic physiques. And really, in Manahattan, where are these hills that can't be powered up in a 50/19 gear?

And finally, get out of the pain cave and do the CP ride once a week and find a group that does a long weekend ride. Those long recreational group rides are great for recovery and long low watt spins, lots of social time and the miles pile up. The only down side is time/efficiency. I ride with a group of fit neighbors and the 2-3 hour rides are great
 

jsirabella

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I can see how you would find this statement to be contrary to performing well on the bike but that has always been the problem. Basically I want to do well on the bike and still have some mass and strength. I can not for the life of me see myself at 150 lbs. In my adult life I was only 150 lbs once and it nearly brought my mom to tears as she thought I was going to die.

As far as weight goes before I broke my ankle I was about 220-230lbs and just plain fat. I was just too busy building my business since I was in my late 20s and now 40 had pretty much turned into a lard ass. It was really bad and breaking my ankle turned it all around for me about 4 years ago. It was the horror of the hospital and how helpless I felt that got me to go to the gym after I recovered.

I went down to 175lbs about 6 mos after starting the gym and very little cycling and till this day have never budged even though I now work out 4 hours a day on weekends and 2 hour a day on week days. The only thing people say to me is that my weight is the same but my composition is different than it was 3 years ago. It kind of makes me feel like a hamster on a wheel where no matter how much I do I do not get big enuf or fast enuf...lol.

Which makes me think that I have spent three years in pretty much the same place where my lifts go up and my cycling performace goes up but I never really get great at either.

This is the time of year to really think about it all...but for a kid who grew up in Brooklyn where it was all about mass and weights to go down to 150 lbs just sounds kind of insane initially.

Doc, great advice and same to you KO but I just got to decide "what I want to be when I grow up?" unfortunately though I am 43 years old... Maybe the first thing would be to stop going to both this forum and the t-nation one and stop picking up Planet Muscle and Bicycling Magazine also....

-js



swampy1970 said:
I find this quite odd. I personally find that losing weight is very easy but it's not something that can be done easily when training hard. If you back off the intensity and just do 60 to 90 minute rides and cut back on the onride carbo-drinks and just follow a sensible diet then there's nothing that difficult about losing weight.

Loss of body fat as several distinct advantages apart from the obvious power to weight. Less fat means better heat loss and better aerodynamics partly due to less mass but also because you can feasibly get lower due to less gut squish... It also makes things a little easier on components like bars, saddles and rims...

There's also less stuff inside you to hinder other stuff like breathing - have a good amount of fat squishing up against your diaphram can't be a good thing can it?

I'm not sure if I'm the only one too feel this way but I often think that losing a large majority of excess weight is the first thing that one should do if you want to get better on the bike.
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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:D I am coming down from my bodybuilding past and though I competed as a lightweight I was often around 190 lbs in the offseason.

I am now down to 173 at a height of 66 inches so I am right there withya JS :D (taken this past Saturday)

You know I am steadfast on my goal to "have my cake and eat it to" plan :)
Ya know I cannot help but do the taboo lift and cycle. :p

I do plan on getting into the low 160's by sometime next summer, but I have a bunch of experience in getting lean and for me the trick is to go very very slow. If I am losing more than a pound a week that is too fast and my performance will drop. If I lose slow my body will adapt, I will sleep better, I am less likely to snap at someone:rolleyes: . I expect to get a little weaker in the gym, but improve on the bike. I am also used to switching to a different type of gym workout as I get lighter and as strength declines a little.

Bottom line many of us have different goals and you are right it is just getting down to the list of refined priorities.

Of course I am a big believer in training specificity if one has competing and winning as the number one goal.
 

kopride

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May 17, 2006
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jsirabella said:
Doc, great advice and same to you KO but I just got to decide "what I want to be when I grow up?" unfortunately though I am 43 years old... Maybe the first thing would be to stop going to both this forum and the t-nation one and stop picking up Planet Muscle and Bicycling Magazine also....

-js
Or, we can start a forum devoted to bodybuilders who love cardio. Because you know that the weight guys dis pure cardio in the same way that the cyclists on this forum denegrate lifting.

I just see it that you, Felt, and I and I don't see "being healthy" in the same narrow focus that either group of purists view it. On a beautiful sunny clear weekend like the past one, it would be absolutely criminal not to be out on a bike and riding with my riding buddies. The hours in the gym are just no subsitute. On the same token, I am not sure that Philly is Brooklyn, but in a working class neighborhood, you tended to look up to the big strong guys who could handle themselves, and a 135 pound adult in Lycra shorts, wasn't that model. For me, being "healthy" includes being strong and being able to enjoy outdoors.

There are lots of people who have a broader definition of health, but you are right that you are not going to find that message in a forum focusing on the purists. The problem is that you have no interest in hearing the message where the cross training/ "health fitness" message is preached, the spin class folks, the natilus circuit, and the weekend "c" ride to the country bagel store and back at 15 mph.

So, if you want to see people who are serious about cycling gains, you check in with the hardcore cyclists. And, you do the same with lifting. As long as you accept that there are some limitations, i.e. no Mr. Universe is ever going to win the TDF, and no pro cyclist is ever going to win a power lifting championship, you can meet reasonable cycling and lifting goals simultaneously. The juice bar poser who does a spin class and does a good set of 20 on the gym leg press is just never going to be your guru.

And that's it. At some point you have to accept your limitations as a human and realize that you are reaching your own personal goals. The CP ride is not a lofty goal and there are certainly a fair number of guys at our weight that can hang with the group. Winning CX races or a crit and benching 300 might not be a reasonable goal. Being very strong in a few key lifts is also not out there, but I don't expect you to be on the cover of MILO next month.

Can you get on a program where you can bench 250, squat 300+, and hang with the boys in CP, sure. Why is that goal any lesser than winning a local crit or CX and being a 150 pound pencil necked geek? Or being able to bench 300, but unable to spend three or four hours riding in the beautiful outdoors.
Jeez, if you are producing anime, you need to be big to overcome the geek factor. If you go full bore into cycling, shave your legs, and can't even bench 185, me and Felt will shun you and start sending you spam from herbal viagra companies.
 

kopride

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Felt_Rider said:
:D
Bottom line many of us have different goals and you are right it is just getting down to the list of refined priorities.

Of course I am a big believer in training specificity if one has competing and winning as the number one goal.
Both points are huge. What do you really want?

If you want to win races, then the price will be giving up activities that will not help you win races, and making ther same diet and training sacrifices that the elite racers make.

if you goal is to cycle and be strong, then you need to ride and lift.
 

jsirabella

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kopride said:
And that's it. At some point you have to accept your limitations as a human and realize that you are reaching your own personal goals. The CP ride is not a lofty goal and there are certainly a fair number of guys at our weight that can hang with the group. Winning CX races or a crit and benching 300 might not be a reasonable goal. Being very strong in a few key lifts is also not out there, but I don't expect you to be on the cover of MILO next month.

Can you get on a program where you can bench 250, squat 300+, and hang with the boys in CP, sure. Why is that goal any lesser than winning a local crit or CX and being a 150 pound pencil necked geek? Or being able to bench 300, but unable to spend three or four hours riding in the beautiful outdoors.
You gave me some perspective. Yeah cross-train gets a bum rap and to be honest as you get older cross training is probably the best way to last live a long and healthier life. But you are right, based upon your post I should be able to do the goals I set out to do. I will think about them as sequential, if the CP rides work out with the 300 watts or not than I can think about the races.

Honestly I have been missing my weights these last couple of weeks and really want to get back to atleast my two days a week plan. I may be delusional but I think I can do it all and even gain a little bit of mass in the process.

So the goals are set and the race is on...going to miss those mozzerella sticks...:mad:...back to cottage cheese...

Also I forgot to put it in the swampy post but just like philly we have alot of restaurants for takeout and there are plenty of these mexican/latino riders who do the delivery. Alot of them have quite a bit of a belly but are a bit shorter and have this style of riding where thet are basically walking on the pedals and you would be surprised how fast they move. There were a pair in CP with construction boots on and you should see how fast thety were going, belly and all.

kopride said:
Jeez, if you are producing anime, you need to be big to overcome the geek factor. If you go full bore into cycling, shave your legs, and can't even bench 185, me and Felt will shun you and start sending you spam from herbal viagra companies.
All are in agreement...had text my wife before and asked "160 thin and cycling or 185 bigger and weights"...the text came back "185 no question". I think it is because she could not stand me being less weight than her...:D

-js
 

doctorSpoc

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jsirabella said:
I can see how you would find this statement to be contrary to performing well on the bike but that has always been the problem. Basically I want to do well on the bike and still have some mass and strength. I can not for the life of me see myself at 150 lbs. In my adult life I was only 150 lbs once and it nearly brought my mom to tears as she thought I was going to die.

i know exactly what you are talking about.. i took about three years to shed my 30lbs... back to what i weighed when i was in my early 20s... i'm 40 now... and i had people that i know... walking up to me, looking me straight in the eyes and asking me, very sincerely... are you ok? one nice bonus was that my after my mother-in-law was assured i didn't have some terminal disease, she started sending over care packages because she thought her daughter wasn't feeding me.. great home cooked meals every week in order to fatten me up... nice!

it's all about priority though... and the priorities are entirely a personal thing... i think it's good to make a choice with eyes wide open and to know that indeed you are making a choice to accept lower performance for reason x,y or z... i fully accept lower performance because i have a wife (and want to keep it that way ;)) and now a little one... back in the day i used to get up to 25+ hrs a week now... maybe a few times a year i do a 15hr week. this past year when my little one came along i didn't have one top ten finish... the previous year i had about 10 top ten finishes and was very competitive at national road Master 30.. screwed up the tactics ... but i wouldn't change that for anything... so you make choices and prioritize but i think it's good to make conscious choices.

one thing is if you stick to flatter races you should be relatively better off... the weight thing will be a very big factor on hills... you are basically carry an extra 30-40lbs (like if i were to ride a 50lb bicycle) weighing you down, that is not contributing to getting you up the hill and on top of that is taking away blood volume etc, etc... on the flats though less of a factor.. you could just choose your races accordingly...
 

kopride

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doctorSpoc said:
i
one thing is if you stick to flatter races you should be relatively better off... the weight thing will be a very big factor on hills... you are basically carry an extra 30-40lbs (like if i were to ride a 50lb bicycle) weighing you down, that is not contributing to getting you up the hill and on top of that is taking away blood volume etc, etc... on the flats though less of a factor.. you could just choose your races accordingly...
CP is perfect. Its flat and you have enough already at 260 to hang on. You'll get faster. Being king of the CP ride would be no small feat.

Alot of them have quite a bit of a belly but are a bit shorter and have this style of riding where thet are basically walking on the pedals and you would be surprised how fast they move. There were a pair in CP with construction boots on and you should see how fast thety were going, belly and all.
Yes, we have those chunky guys on wrecks of bikes who you have a hard time keeping up with in traffic. We also used to have some bike messagers riding with us after they had been riding all day at work on absolute POS bikes--back ten years or so before fixed gears became a fad. I always found it amazing how these guys could ride for eight hours, smoke dope every break they got, and then keep up riding some trash bike with a pack for two more hours against racers riding high tech lightweight bikes up and down hills. Go figure.

There is also that farmer/construction worker strength that is much different than gym strength. You want to be humbled. Try and keep up with an Amish man one day. They are not going to be running a world class 10k, but I guarantee that they will out walk and out work you in the fields.
 

postal_bag

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kopride said:
CP is perfect. Its flat and you have enough already at 260 to hang on. You'll get faster. Being king of the CP ride would be no small feat.


Yes, we have those chunky guys on wrecks of bikes who you have a hard time keeping up with in traffic. We also used to have some bike messagers riding with us after they had been riding all day at work on absolute POS bikes--back ten years or so before fixed gears became a fad. I always found it amazing how these guys could ride for eight hours, smoke dope every break they got, and then keep up riding some trash bike with a pack for two more hours against racers riding high tech lightweight bikes up and down hills. Go figure.

There is also that farmer/construction worker strength that is much different than gym strength. You want to be humbled. Try and keep up with an Amish man one day. They are not going to be running a world class 10k, but I guarantee that they will out walk and out work you in the fields.
For the record (I was a bike messenger for a few years in the '90s), my actual ride time for an 8 hr day was typically ~4 hrs, give or take, and rarely more than a few minutes at a time.

I'd love to race my old self....wonder what my FTP was back then. I didn't even have a road bike (mtn bike w/slicks). I used to lift weights or go for a run in the evenings and on weekends. I ate huge amounts of food. I weighed about 185 lbs (6' 3") at the time vs 170 lbs these days ( I get down to 165 during mid-season). And, by the way, I never smoked "dope".;)
 

jsirabella

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doctorSpoc said:
it's all about priority though... and the priorities are entirely a personal thing... i think it's good to make a choice with eyes wide open and to know that indeed you are making a choice to accept lower performance for reason x,y or z...
Have to admit that sentence does sting a little given my personality but you are correct. I think it may not be entirely an issue of priorities as much as "setting a realistic goal". I learned that in other parts of my life. No need to set yourself up for failure but make the goal just far enough to be a challenge.

Also I like most people in life "you tend todo more of what you are good at". People can only deal so long with failing or no improvement so will focus on the areas they are good at. If I see improvement on the bike more than I see in the weights than I may loose those pounds after all.

-js
 

jsirabella

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Karma may be calling out to me...talk about timing.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sex_news_sports_funny/the_truth_about_crossfit

There are some very good lines in here like...
According to the CrossFit website, "Our specialty is not specializing. Combat, survival, many sports, and life reward this kind of fitness and, on average, punish the specialist."

Experienced CrossFitters aren't the strongest athletes out there, but they're stronger than most. They're not the fastest either, but they're fast. Their claim to fame is their completeness.

And it's easy to see the appeal: Why be big if you're not functional? Why have great endurance if you have no strength and power? Why not be competent in all of those things?

Critics point out that being "competent" at everything makes you great at nothing. It's a valid criticism, but it doesn't bother the CrossFit community. They revel in their versatility and believe strongly that being skilled in every aspect of fitness makes them, as their T-shirts proclaim, "unfuckwithable."


-js