Cat 3 fun

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Warren, Aug 8, 2003.

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  1. Gwhite

    Gwhite Guest

    warren wrote:
    >
    > In article <100820030913409273%[email protected]>, Casey Kerrigan
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]>
    > > wrote:
    >
    > > > >Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
    > > > >>
    > > > >
    > > > >> My point was that the guys dominating the masters are there for easier pickings than senior
    > > > >> races.
    >
    > > In reviewing a bunch of master 35 1/2/3 race results it doesn't look like anyone is dominating
    > > the master fields ( in terms of race winners).

    I think its great if there is more competition, but...

    Ride in the race and then you'll know who is putting the hammer down and who is just holding on. I
    remember what my Cat 2 teammate said when he turned 35. "I like the masters races. Now instead of 30
    guys who can always beat me in every race, now there are only 5-10 guys in a given race who will
    always beat me."

    > > In 34 different Master 35+ 1/2/3 races there have been 24 different winners.
    >
    > So there are about 24 guys who are "dominating" the races. :)
    >
    > > The only multi race winners in the races I reviewed were.
    > >
    > > Daniel Smith 2 wins Chris Black 2 wins Sandy Wong 2 wins Vince Gee 3 wins Brian McGuire 2 wins
    > > Patrick Briggs 2 wins Don Langley 2 wins Peter Allen 2 wins Michael Hutchinson 2 wins
    >
    > I think Larry Nolan won Monta Vista or one of those other Fremont Criteriums, and something else.
    > Chris Hipp won Cherry Pie and at least one other race.

    I certainly see some familiar names. Langley won a bagful of races last year. McGuire has always won
    a lot. Allen has won for years. If Casey would compile for the past ten years and also include not
    who won, but the many more who *never* won, he'd have a much more accurate perspective (I'd really
    enjoy seeing the histogram). A team of 40 yo cat 3's has no chance against Nolan & crew. A total
    point system for placings for the last ten years would tell the story Casey is missing.
     


  2. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email protected] Date: 8/10/03 9:24 AM Pacific Daylight
    > >Time Message-id: <100820030922547526%[email protected]>
    > >
    > >In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow
    > ><[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >> >Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email protected] Date: 8/9/03 8:57 AM Pacific
    > >> >Daylight Time Message-id: <090820030856395614%[email protected]>
    > >> >
    > >> >In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]>
    > >> >wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> >> I was only looking at top 10s at Monte Vista, I only noticed two riders
    > >in
    > >> >> the top ten in both races. I think a short time between races probably
    > >> >helped
    > >> >> those riders who did both.
    > >> >
    > >> >Yes, Josh, you should try doing almost two hours of racing continuously against guys who only
    > >> >have to race about half that time. Or perhaps you can do your regular race warmup, then a race
    > >> >effort warmup for a full 50 minutes before your one race and then tell us that it helped you.
    > >> >
    > >> >-WG
    > >> >
    > >>
    > >> I'd say doing a race itself is the most effective warmup.
    > >
    > >Then go ahead and do a normal race warmup for 30-45 minutes, then do a race-effort for 50 minutes
    > >before ALL of your single races and tell us this again.
    >
    > A "race effort" and sitting in in a race are different. A "race effort" warmup of 50 minutes is
    > basically a time trial. That's way different than riding in a race.

    You are evading the question.

    Do the warmup any way you want to call it. Just do it like you would a race, so the effort it about
    the same and the fatigue is the same, then go do your races. Thne tell us why you think guys doing
    races back to back are better off than guys like you doing one race.

    Do you do the River Ride right before your races in Sacramento? It's a good warmup right?

    -WG
     
  3. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: Casey Kerrigan [email protected] Date: 8/10/03 9:13 AM Pacific
    > >Daylight Time Message-id: <100820030913409273%[email protected]>
    >
    > [SNIPPED]>In reviewing a bunch of master 35 1/2/3 race results it doesn't look
    > >like anyone is dominating the master fields ( in terms of race winners). In 34 different Master
    > >35+ 1/2/3 races there have been 24 different winners. The only multi race winners in the racs I
    > >review were.
    > >
    > >Daniel Smith 2 wis Chris Black 2 wins Sandy wong 2 wins Vince Gee 3 wins Brian McGuire 2 wins
    > >Patrick Briggs 2 wins Don Langley 2 wins Peter Allen 2 wins Michael Hutchinson 2 wins
    > >
    > >
    >
    > It seems like its the same names in the top 6 or so over and over again. Have any masters races
    > been won by Cat 3s this year?

    Rick Adams won the 45+ race in Fremont and the guy in second place was Larry Nolan. Rick also got
    second in the Sr. 3's race at Davis after already having raced in the 45+ event. George Miranda was
    3rd in the Land Park 35+ 123 race and was 5th in the 3's race before that. I only know about these
    two guys because we are on the same team.

    > I'd imagine that an extremely large percentage of the top 6s are Cat 2 and above.

    So what? It is in fact a 1,2,3 event. As far as I'm concerned, the more 1,2's in the event
    the better.

    -WG
     
  4. Gwhite

    Gwhite Guest

  5. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, gwhite <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Carl Sundquist wrote:
    > >
    > > "gwhite" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > >
    > > THE POMERANIAN IS IN THE HOUSE!!!
    >
    > Yes, yes, I love it here. I love you all. kiss kiss kiss.

    Oops. I thought the "Precious Pup" guy was a reincarnation of "The Pomeranian". So it's two
    different guys?! Then I need to know... Is "never_doped" really Andy Coggan?

    -WG
     
  6. > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
    this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

    --B_3143387831_7944580 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

    On 8/10/03 7:10 PM, in article 100820031908595551%[email protected], "warren"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>, gwhite <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Carl Sundquist wrote:
    >>>
    >>> "gwhite" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> THE POMERANIAN IS IN THE HOUSE!!!
    >>
    >> Yes, yes, I love it here. I love you all. kiss kiss kiss.
    >
    > Oops. I thought the "Precious Pup" guy was a reincarnation of "The Pomeranian". So it's two
    > different guys?! Then I need to know... Is "never_doped" really Andy Coggan?
    >
    > -WG
    They are the same..................

    X-Trace: home.itg.ti.com 1060494882 6065 146.252.12.99 (10 Aug 2003 05:54:42 GMT)

    X-Trace: home.itg.ti.com 1060566472 29761 146.252.12.99 (11 Aug 2003
    01:47:52 GMT)

    --B_3143387831_7944580 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding:
    quoted-printable

    <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: Cat 3 fun by Pom Pom</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN
    STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>On 8/10/03 7:10 PM, in = article
    100820031908595551%[email protected], "warren" <war= [email protected]>
    wrote:<BR> <BR> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> In article <[email protected]>, gwh= ite
    <[email protected]> wrote:<BR> > <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> Carl Sundquist
    wrote:<BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> <BR> >>> "gwhite"
    <[email protected]> wrote in message news=
    :[email protected]<BR>
    </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>>
    <BR> >>> THE POMERANIAN IS IN THE HOUSE!!!<BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> <BR>
    >> Yes, yes, I love it here. I love you all. kiss kiss ki= ss.<BR> </FONT><FONT
    COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> <BR> > Oops. I thought the "Precious Pup" guy was a
    reincarnation o= f "The<BR> > Pomeranian". So it's two different guys?! Then I need to
    know... = Is<BR> > "never_doped" really Andy Coggan?<BR> > <BR> > -WG<BR>
    </FONT>They are the same..................<BR> <BR> <BR> X-Trace: home.itg.ti.com 1060494882 6065
    146.252.12.99 (10 Aug 2003 05:54:4= 2 GMT)<BR> <BR> <BR> X-Trace: home.itg.ti.com 1060566472 29761
    146.252.12.99 (11 Aug 2003 01:47:= 52 GMT)</SPAN></FONT> </BODY> </HTML>

    --B_3143387831_7944580--
     
  7. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email protected]> wrote:

    > >Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email protected]

    > >> I'd imagine that an extremely large percentage of the top 6s are Cat 2 and above.
    > >
    > >So what? It is in fact a 1,2,3 event. As far as I'm concerned, the more 1,2's in the event the
    > >better.
    > >
    > >-WG
    >
    > Just pointing out that it's mainly 1s and 2s finishing ahead of a lot of Cat
    > 3s.

    That's the price to pay if you want to race against the best in your age group. Pros tend to finish
    ahead of 2's in their races too.

    > If a race didn't have a masters category, would you do the 3s?

    I did Monta Vista with the 3's for that reason and because it looked like a course that wouldn't
    encourage too much stupid riding. I did the 3's race at Folsom because it's 2 miles from my house,
    the course looked safe although we ended up having to restart the race after one crash, and I didn't
    think I'd go well in the 35's anyway because I was tired from training that week (I did the 35's
    race after the 3's race).

    -WG
     
  8. "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

    > > Dumbass -
    > >
    > > I wouldn't call it "burned out" as much as time to move onto something
    else.
    > > 11 years of 20 hours/week was already too much time.
    >
    > Chickenshit.

    Almost everyone stops, eventually.
     
  9. "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Dumbass,
    >
    > Look at the subject line. You're doing Klassic Kunich: responding to
    something
    > that wasn't even said, and I should not have followed the red herring.
    >
    > Hendricks didn't mention "easiness;" the topic is relative safety, and
    Hendricks
    > pointed out that Josh can't judge relative safety because he hasn't done
    both.
    > You use the same type of argument all the time, but all the sudden it's
    not okay
    > with you.

    Look at who Hendricks replied to: Zlotlow, who was speaking of 1/2 races.
     
  10. "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > Dumbass wrote:
    >
    > > That does not contradict with the referenced post.
    >
    >
    > Dumbass wrote: Masters races tend to be smoother, therefore easier.
    >
    > Bret Wade wrote: People who double up in the 30+ and P123 races (not me) have said that the P123
    > race is easier to sit in on, not because it slower (it's not) but because it's smoother.
    >
    > Dumbass wrote: That is correct.
    >
    >
    >
    > Make up your mind dipsy doodle.

    I didn't agree with that, dumbass.

    I agreed with him saying that "it's something else".
     
  11. Gwhite

    Gwhite Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >
    > "Precious Pup" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > Dumbass,
    > >
    > > Look at the subject line. You're doing Klassic Kunich: responding to
    > something
    > > that wasn't even said, and I should not have followed the red herring.
    > >
    > > Hendricks didn't mention "easiness;" the topic is relative safety, and
    > Hendricks
    > > pointed out that Josh can't judge relative safety because he hasn't done
    > both.
    > > You use the same type of argument all the time, but all the sudden it's
    > not okay
    > > with you.
    >

    >
    > Look at who Hendricks replied to: Zlotlow, who was speaking of 1/2 races.

    Nope. You just had something you felt you needed to say.
     
  12. "gwhite" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >

    > >
    > > Look at who Hendricks replied to: Zlotlow, who was speaking of 1/2
    races.
    >
    > Nope. You just had something you felt you needed to say.

    Dumbass -

    this is Hendricks' post (replying to Zlotlow):

    "Scott Hendricks" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (Joshua Zlotlow) wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > >Subject: Cat 3 fun
    > >
    > > So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't
    do
    > > those either? I'm not going to say too much more than that, since I
    don't want
    > > want to start sounding too much like Henry, even though he's generally
    right in
    > > his mockery of Masters racing.
    > >
    > > Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters
    1/2/3
    > > fields. They're made up of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due
    to a
    > > lack of talent or ability to train enough due to other demands in life;
    and 1s
    > > and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly competitive in
    the
    > > serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on
    a pack
    > > of mostly Cat 3s. Josh Zlotlow [email protected] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden
    > > Wheelmen www.sacgw.com
    >
    >
    > Obviously someone who's never actually done a Masters race.
     
  13. Gwhite

    Gwhite Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >
    > "gwhite" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > >

    > > >
    > > > Look at who Hendricks replied to: Zlotlow, who was speaking of 1/2
    > races.
    > >
    > > Nope. You just had something you felt you needed to say.
    >
    > Dumbass -
    >
    > this is Hendricks' post (replying to Zlotlow):
    >

    Dumbass Scott Hendricks wrote in reply to Dumbass:
    >
    > Perhaps the masters are easier than the pro/1/2 fields, but unless you've got an incredibly strong
    > 3s field and a relatively weak masters field, the masters are not easier than the 3s by any
    > stretch of the imagination.
    >
    > Here in CO, the 45+ will typically have avg speeds on par or slightly above the 3s, and the 35+
    > are significantly faster than the 3s. Some days they're almost on par w/ the pro/1/2 speeds.
     
  14. "gwhite" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >

    > Scott Hendricks wrote in reply to Zlotlow:
    > >
    > > Perhaps the masters are easier than the pro/1/2 fields,

    Dumbass -

    that particular statement is the one I was addressing.
     
  15. Gwhite

    Gwhite Guest

    Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    >
    > "gwhite" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    >
    > > Scott Hendricks wrote in reply to Zlotlow:
    > > >
    > > > Perhaps the masters are easier than the pro/1/2 fields,
    >
    > Dumbass -
    >
    > that particular statement is the one I was addressing.

    Dumbass,

    That is a neat trick. I mean, making time go backwards. But you don't believe what the Second Law
    says, so I suppose it is no surprise.
     
  16. Nick Burns

    Nick Burns Guest

    "K. J. Papai" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    >
    > That's always the dichotomy of Masters 1/2/3 races.

    >85% are won by Cat 1's (ex-Pros too), 14% by a Cat. 2 and 1% at best by a sandbagging 3. The 3's
    >have no chance except for possibly safer racing than a pure Sr. 3 pack (I've done both many times
    >and can assure you the Sr. 3 packs are three times as stupid as the Masters in NorCal).

    No you did not say that!
     
  17. Nick Burns

    Nick Burns Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message:

    > I wouldn't call it "burned out" as much as time to move onto something
    else.
    > 11 years of 20 hours/week was already too much time.

    You are leaving RBR again?
     
  18. "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message:
    >
    > > I wouldn't call it "burned out" as much as time to move onto something
    > else.
    > > 11 years of 20 hours/week was already too much time.
    >
    > You are leaving RBR again?

    lol, if I was smart I would.
     
  19. "gwhite" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
    > >
    > > "gwhite" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > >
    > > > Scott Hendricks wrote in reply to Zlotlow:
    > > > >
    > > > > Perhaps the masters are easier than the pro/1/2 fields,
    > >
    > > Dumbass -
    > >
    > > that particular statement is the one I was addressing.
    >
    > Dumbass,
    >
    > That is a neat trick. I mean, making time go backwards. But you don't
    believe
    > what the Second Law says, so I suppose it is no surprise.

    Dumbass -

    That's the statment I was addressing.

    You thought I was addressing something else. What's the big deal?
     
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